freya
Oud Junkie
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For String Experimenters...
You may find this interesting:
http://www.guitar-vacation-retreats.com/resources/fluorocarbon_stri...
I got reels of 0.52mm, 0.57mm, 0.62mm and 0.66mm Seaguar Fluoro Premier and have been guite happy - good tone, excellent intonation, and good tuning
stablity (once they stretch out). If you're a string experimenter (in the US for shipping reasons) drop me U2U and I may be able to send a few of you
a set at my cost.
Harry
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Thanks for that hint - strings are an endless isue (like reeds for sax players) and it's great to have a source of pricey string material.
On guitar flour carbon strings can sometimes give a greater brightness of the tone and the tone is more shapeable.
I'm very cuirious to try it out on Oud...
best wishes
Robert
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Hi there, finally i had to change strings and used those one that you had sent me quite a while back.
I can confirm that these string material seaguar flouro premium is excellent -
as described. Thanks a lot again ...
Quote: Originally posted by rojaros  | Thanks for that hint - strings are an endless isue (like reeds for sax players) and it's great to have a source of pricey string material.
On guitar flour carbon strings can sometimes give a greater brightness of the tone and the tone is more shapeable.
I'm very cuirious to try it out on Oud...
best wishes
Robert |
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Hi everybody - I now got a reel of 0.52 fluorocarbon string by SUFIX Invisiline - also a very good material for strings (in Germany it's almost
impossible to get Seaguar).
best wishes
Robert
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Just google for "Fluorocarbon Schnur" and you'll find tons of german online shops, who sell fluorocarbon fishing lines of different brands, incl.
Seaguar ... but you're right, it's mainly different brands. But I think every good local fishing shop should be able to order Seaguar for their
customers.
But why not order Kuerschner strings ... he also has fluorcarbon trebbles as an alternative to nylon and gut.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
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Maybe if you compare the length of the fishing line on a reel and then compare how much it would cost to buy enough strings to make the same length
you might answer your own question
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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How many ouds do you want to string? 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
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I would think that if you own a few ouds (and who doesn't) then the prospect of getting a life-time supply of strings for a once only relatively low
outlay would be a Good Thing don't you agree?
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Aymara
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Many will, I don't. First I'm not an oud-collector ... my maximum would be 3 ... a fixed bridge, a floating bridge and an electric oud.
Second I'm not the type of guy, who pays thousands of dollars for good ouds and saves when buying strings. In my opinion this is similar to the hobby
photographers, who buy expensive digital SLRs and combine them with cheap lenses. So I prefer Kuerschner, who manufactures strings especially for my
oud's dimensions.
No offense intended! ... it's just my personal opinion.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
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No offence to me, I have only 3 ouds and buy expensive Pyramid and Savarez custom guage lute strings to suit my own personal taste 
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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To date, I have only used Pyramid PVF trebles and they are good quality but quite expensive ranging from $ 3.2 to $4.7 (plus shipping and handling)
for a diameter range from 0.33 mm to 0.8 mm and length 1.15 metre.
Checking out the Seaguar Fluorocarbon leaders, the Premier grade - coming in 25 metre coils - works out at from about 50 cents to about $1.30 per
metre (plus shipping and handling if applicable). The diameter range is 0.370, 0.405, 0.470, 0.570, 0.620, 0.700, and 0.780 mm so does not cover the
diameter range as extensively as the Pyramid strings.
However, the Seaguar Blue Label Leaders (that now come in 5 yard coils as well as 25 metre) are almost half the price of the Premier leaders and cover
a diameter range of 0.330, 0.405, 0.435, 0.520, 0.620, 0.660, 0.740 and 0.810 which extends the choice of diameters close to those offered by Pyramid.
Other manufacturers of fluorocarbon fishing leaders likely offer further diameter variations within the same range. Whether or not these would be good
for instrument strings would need to be tested.
I have not tried fluorocarbon fishing leaders as instrument strings but would be interested to know how they might differ (if at all) in composition,
structure and dimensional accuracy from the strings offered by instrument string suppliers. As I understand it fluorocarbon strings are of laminated
construction made by an extrusion process and I would have to suppose that there are not too many manufacturers specialising in this type of string
worldwide?
I may be wrong but suspect that the instrument string suppliers do not make their fluorocarbon strings (or nylon for that matter - although they may
'rectify' or polish the raw strings obtained from other manufacturers).
If this is the case, I wonder who makes the fluorocarbon strings sold by the instrument string suppliers - companies like Seaguar? After all a huge
market world wide for these strings would be for anglers and 'sports' fishermen - not for musical instruments, a tiny market by comparison.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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You might find further information in accoustic guitar forums, where these fishing lines were discussed for a long time.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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I might Aymara but do you know for sure if my question has ever been previously researched and answered by the guitarists - i.e. how the construction,
composition and dimensional accuracy of the fluorocarbon fishing lines might differ (if at all) from the fluorocarbon instrument strings?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | ... do you know for sure if my question has ever been previously researched and answered by the guitarists ... |
No, I don't, but they are discussing it much longer than oudists, so I thought, the chances for answers might be better there.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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freya
Oud Junkie
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The original pointer is no longer valid but some of that material relating to construction details and comparison to commercial instrument strings was
reposted here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9942&pa...
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Thanks Aymara and freya - I must have overlooked that thread for some reason.
Will look into the possibilities further based on that information and possibly run some tests of my own - if I can find a local sports shop that
sells the fluorocarbon leaders as I am sure that there must be one.
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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You're right, it's not difficult to get fluorocarbon fishing lines per sé, but not Seaguar. The biggest fishing shop in my town didn't even know the
name Seaguar.
The problem with other brands is that they have reportedly problems with thickness calibration, which translates into pitch problems along the string
(unequal pitches in pairs). As far as it is reported, no such problems seem to occure with the Seaguar Premium line (though it does with the cheaper
lies of seaguar).
As I wrote, I just got a wheel of Sufix Invisiline Premium line 0.52 und put it on my classical guitar with very good result.
It is certainly much cheaper to buy the strings on wheels than to buy (probabely same material) as branded strings - if you have set your mind on
using the same trebles for longer time...
best wishes
Robert
| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Just google for "Fluorocarbon Schnur" and you'll find tons of german online shops, who sell fluorocarbon fishing lines of different brands, incl.
Seaguar ... but you're right, it's mainly different brands. But I think every good local fishing shop should be able to order Seaguar for their
customers.
But why not order Kuerschner strings ... he also has fluorcarbon trebbles as an alternative to nylon and gut. |
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by rojaros | | You're right, it's not difficult to get fluorocarbon fishing lines per sé, but not Seaguar. The biggest fishing shop in my town didn't even know the
name Seaguar. |
It might be problematic with local shops, but using Google I found THIS dealer at once.
Maybe that helps.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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I have now had time to read the excerpt from the guitar forum ("Beyond Nylon: Fluorocarbon") which contains some useful, 'hands on' experience in the
use of 'PVF' musical instrument strings as well as Seaguar fishing leaders. As I read the excerpt, the reported problems with string delamination and
bad intonation seem to be restricted to fluorocarbon strings from Savarez Alliance, Oasis and Galli Carbonios. The problem apparently is that these
strings are of polyfilament construction (made up from twisted individual fibres like a gut or silk string I assume?) - but exactly how they are made
is not explained further.
The Seaguar leaders on the other hand are made by a unique extrusion process resulting in a hard resin core covered by a softer resin sleeve. This
double structure combines the resin components into a solid piece that , according to Seaguar, cannot separate - unlike lines made by a layering or
coating process. In other words they are equivalent to a monofilament structure.
I have used Pyramid PVF strings for a number of years on lutes and have never encountered any problems with delamination (or bad intonation) - and
they seem to last 'forever'. The strings appear to be of a monofilament structure.
However, on a lute the strings are plucked with fingertips and not a hard plectrum (or hard nails of a classical guitarist). Also string tensions are
about half of those used on a classical guitar (or modern oud?).
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Really? I would have expected the tensions of oud and lute strings to be very similar ... was I so wrong?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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Well I am not sure about that either.
I have the impression, however, that oud string tension is generally higher than is found on a 'built to historical standards' lute (i.e. copies of
original instruments of the 16th/17th C). The string tensions may not seem significantly higher for an oud but - in my experience at least - can make
the difference between a lute being 'playable' or not when using historically correct right hand finger techniques where the soft fingertips pluck a
string and not the fingernails of a classical guitarist.
It may not have been the case in the 1960's when the first 'lutes' of the modern revival were heavily built with high tension stringing - designed for
guitarists wanting to perform the vast surviving repertoire for lute (and related instruments) not on a classical guitar but on an instrument that at
least 'looked the part' (but was not otherwise built to any historical standards) and so did not require a change in their classical guitar playing
technique. While these instruments may now be 'passe' they did serve - in the hands of virtuoso players like Julian Bream - to promote a great
interest in the modern day revival of the lute.
So what are the comparative string tensions between a lute and modern oud? I suppose that much depends upon the instrument, tuning, player preference,
playing technique string material and the make of string.
For example a six double course Renaissance lute - 60 cm string length with octave tuned basses - the string tensions using modern nylon and metal
overspun strings, 'g' tuning at A440 modern concert pitch might typically be:
g' 3.5 Kg
d' 3.3 Kg
a 2.8 Kg
f 2.8 Kg
c 2.8 Kg
c' 2.6 Kg
c 2.8 Kg
G 2.8 Kg
g 2.6 Kg
(source Pyramid Strings)
This is about the range of string tension that I use (with modern strings) with perhaps a slightly higher tension for a single treble g' string.
How about a modern oud such as a Bashir style floating bridge oud? String tension 4 to 5 Kg (or more) throughout perhaps? Not a problem for plectrum
style playing no doubt but pretty hopeless on a lute when using a traditional right hand technique.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | ... historically correct right hand finger techniques where the soft fingertips pluck a string and not the fingernails ... |
I personally like this technique on the oud too and use it much ... I like this warm sound.
| Quote: |
How about a modern oud such as a Bashir style floating bridge oud? String tension 4 to 5 Kg (or more) throughout perhaps? |
Isn't the average something around 3.5kg? 4-5kg seems extreme to me ... or am I that wrong?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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The Seaguar company FAQ provides a bit more information about their fluorocarbon fishing line products.
The leaders differ from their lines in that the lines are made from a single resin of lower tensile strength whereas the leaders use two different
types of resin extruded as a double structure - both types are monofilament. Seaguar make their own resins for lines and leaders (no other companies
do) and they do not sell their resins to other companies for making lines and leaders. No other companies make double structure leaders.
Presumably, Kureha (the parent company of Seaguar) do sell their resins (and standard size lines?) to companies for other uses (such as instrument
string making)?
It is interesting to note that of the 24 diameters of PVF strings offered by 'Pyramid'
10 diameters match exactly the diameters of the Seaguar leaders (and fishing leaders made by other companies might provide the other diameters?) This
does not mean to say that 'Pyramid' use fishing leaders as their basis for PVF lute strings but does suggest that their may be some kind of
manufacturing standard for each company dictating the extrusion die size.
If the exact diameters required are not available to the string makers their solution might be to 'rectify' stock diameters of PVF strings by the same
process used to 'rectify' plain nylon strings? Rectification- because it is an additional procedure - adds to the cost of a string.
Nylon strings are 'rectified' (I assume) by a 'centreless' grinding process to produce a perfectly cylindrical string of exact diameter (i.e. to
closer tolerances than can be achieved by the extrusion process). Typically - because it is a finishing process - only a few thousands of an inch
would be removed from a string diameter (although heavier stock removal is also possible if required).
Centreless grinding is a familiar process in engineering where it is used as a production finishing process for hardened steel shafts and other long
cylindrical objects. The string grinding equipment works on a similar principle and would seem to be a tool that might be fairly straightforward for a
craftsman to make.
For those interested, luthier and historical string maker Dan Larson describes the tool and its (non historical) application for 'rectifying' gut
strings at:
http://www.daniellarson.com/article.htm
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Thanks ... interesting ... but loooong
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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