Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: I'm in the m'Oud for Love!
|
|
Oud DVD question
Oudprof & all who own his DVD,
I plan to take the advise of many here and purchase the DVD "Learn Maqamat on the OUD (VERSION 2)"
Is it for Arabic tuning only?
Will it work for Turkish tuning?
I have an inexpensive Turkish oud now but plan on purchasing a Sukar 212 soon which I suppose can be tuned Arabic.
Thanks
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
It's oriented to Arabic Maqamat, but it doesn't matter because it doesn't present by notation but by position on the neck. When you play Rast
maqam on a Turkish oud you play in the same positions, though it sounds based in D rather than C, and would be notated even higher in Turkish
notation, I think F. Oud players in the wild don't tune to A=440 anyway, they tune to whatever, like a singer's most comfortable range, capisce?
The names of the Maqamat in Turkish are similar but not identical, but again who cares, if you learn the Arabic names you're good, you can easily pick
up the Turkish names later if it strikes your fancy. It sounds to me like you are more interested in the Arabic tradition anyway.
I can't recommend this DVD enough, there's nothing else like it out there, for the price of a single lesson you get something that will serve you for
years.
|
|
|
Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: I'm in the m'Oud for Love!
|
|
Thanks Fernand,
I'm off to hit the buy it now on eBay for the DVD.
And yes, I am more interested in the Arabic tradition and when I aquire a Sukar will tune it accordingly.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
You can tune a 600 mm Arabic either way on the same "vanilla" strings as long as you find a lighter wound pair for the third (D->E) course, or use
a plain nylon pair.
|
|
|
Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: I'm in the m'Oud for Love!
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | You can tune a 600 mm Arabic either way on the same "vanilla" strings as long as you find a lighter wound pair for the third (D->E) course, or use
a plain nylon pair.
|
Good to know about "vanilla" strings, thanks!
And I assume I can tune a Sukar 212 Arabic if I buy Arabic specific strings?
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Zulu, assuming that you don't do anything fancy, if you have a vanilla set like a Daniel Mari, the same strings will work on an Arabic 615 mm scale
oud tuned Arabic and a Turkish 585 mm oud tuned two half tones higher -- because the shorter scale REQUIRES you to tune higher to get the same
tension. It's not exactly equivalent, but close. You have to think this through until it makes 100% sense. It all comes down to scale lengths and
gauges.
A 585 mm oud, again the same strings, if you tune it Arabic, will be slack, but playable. A 615 mm oud, if you tune it up to Turkish with the same
strings, will be too tense. Thats why they say you can tune a Turkish either way, but you cannot tune an Arabic Turkish. Again, think this through
until it makes sense.
Now the 212 Sukars that I've seen of late are 600 mm. Since Sukar lives close to the Turkish border, it makes sense that his ouds would have an
intermediate scale. You can tune them Arabic, a little looser than a normal 615 mm. But unlike a 615mm, you can also tune them Turkish. It will have
more tension of course than when you tune it Arabic, but as you recall they have a bit of slack when tuned Arabic anyway. It turns out, if you
calculate the tensions, that only the 3rd course is getting into the danger zone. That's why I said you need a thinner pair of wound strings for that
course, or you can use a fat nylon pair, e.g. a pair of nylon 0.040" classical guitar strings, but other than that, you can use again the same vanilla
strings to tune it either way. That's a benefit of the 600 mm scale.
The Turkish-Arabic nomenclature is vague and confusing. There are different oud designs, different scale lengths, different tunings, and different
string gauges. These days there are many hybrid designs. People are so stupid that they want the false security of being told: "here, this is for you
if you have a Turkish oud", so Mari actually makes two sets labeled Turkish and Arabic, and they are exactly the same strings!
When you get into unusual tunings, you have to calculate the tensions, at least check them, for your specific scale length and tuning, or pay through
the nose to have a special custom set "made" for you, when in fact the luthier will just drop commercial strings into the envelopes. Classical guitar
strings and Lute strings and Oud strings are the same. A D'Addario 0.024w is a 0.024" silvered copper on nylon fluff string. It is used in oud sets,
lute sets and oud sets.
You should get a $10 digital caliper so you can measure stuff. Look at the gauges of various sets, learn what is commonplace and what is appropriate.
Learn how to calculate tensions on plain and wound strings. I've explained it several times.
A fixed bridge oud likes tensions between 2.5 and 4 kg. A classical guitar likes double that, and a "Western" steel-stringed guitar doubled again. If
you exceed 5 kg on oud strings, you are endangering the instrument. Don't go by the "for dummies" labeling or you will be forever confused and could
damage the oud.
Once you get this under control, you might want to look into PVF instead of nylon for the plain courses, it's a sound many people prefer.
|
|
|
Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: I'm in the m'Oud for Love!
|
|
Fernand,
What a valuable bit of information; you just took the mystery out of this whole Arabic/Turkish tuning thing!
I've cheked out your posts on PVF; it looks well worth investigating.
I'm off to the hardware store to pick up a digital caliper; I don't want to be at the mercy of misleading or no info on string packages!
I typed in a search for "calculate string tension" but had no luck finding an explanation.
I did find Arto's New String Calculator
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/
and Dan's Calculator
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/files.php?pid=71720&aid=14...
...but I have no idea how to use them.
In the previous post you wrote "Learn how to calculate tensions on plain and wound strings. I've explained it several times."
I don't expect you to repeat yourself again so could you please post a link here to that explanation...Thanks!
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
You can search for all my posts where the word Arto is mentioned, like
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10779&p...
When you have the density of the material, (nylon is about 1050 kg/m^3, PVF is about 1800), it's very simple. Use Arto's original calculator and fill
in the fields, push the button, and you get the tension, you just have to keep converting a lot between inches and millimeters (1 inch = 25.4 mm). For
each wound string it's a two step process: first derive the effective density using manufacturer's data they provide at some scale/tuning/scale, e.g.
for guitar (650 mm) tuned to A, then use that density at the scale/tuning/scale on the oud course you want to find the tension at. Silvered copper on
nylon fluff strings are in the 3000-8000 kg/m^3 range.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
BTW, look how totally position-oriented OudProf's instructions are:
It's true that if you tune Turkish the western note names shift up two half steps, the melody strings ADgc become BEad. But it's the positions that
matter. The (2nd) open course Neva sounds g in Arabic tuning, and a in Turkish, and they notate it a fourth higher, as d. When an Arabic player sees a
g on the staff, he says it's Neva and plays a g. The Turkish player looks at a d on the staff and calls it Neva and plays an a. But they both play the
2nd course open. After a while you start thinking that way, by position.
And one more interesting detail is that an octave below Neva is not Neva, it's called Yegah! welcome to a whole new world. But why would you want to
rehash stuff you already know?
It's one more reason to know your strings by gauge, as some string sets are labeled in Turkish notation, just in case you thought things were getting
too easy.
|
|
|
Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: I'm in the m'Oud for Love!
|
|
I received my "Learn Maqamat" DVD yesterday and I must say...
If you are new to oud this DVD is a MUST HAVE!!!
I have learned so much just examining the contents; I haven't even got into the lessons yet.
This DVD answers so many questions that are otherwise hard to come by. It would take so many years to gather this kind of priceless info!!!
Newbies...do yourself a favor and save yourself hours, days, months & years of frustration...get this DVD; it's worth 10 times what it costs.
Thanks Oudprof 
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
