Ararat66
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What are the origins of Maqam ?
I am on a guitar forum and in replying to a thread promised I would ask the oud community this question to get a more knowledgeable answer than I can
find.
I would love to know how the various Maqams formed and am sure they have crysytalised in various ways from many sources and traditions. Anyone know
of their distant origins??
Cheers
Leon
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Jody Stecher
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Maybe if the context of the mention of Maqam in the guitar forum were known, a more immediately useful answer than mine would be forthcoming from
knowledgable forum members.
The question is very broad and I don't think anyone in the world knows the full answer. It has taken musician-scholars a lifetime to come to some
understanding of the origins of *some* of the maqams in current use or in former use. It would be very ambitious to try to discover the origins of
each and every single maqam (which is what you seem to be asking) or the origins of each of the various maqam systems now in use. One must know the
history of migration and conquest in the regions where some part of the population makes some kind of maqam music. There are clues in the melodic
forms used in the cantillation of the Quran, in the music of the various churches in Arab lands, in the the Byzantine church, in the hundreds of
varieties of folk music in these lands of both settled peoples and nomadic peoples. The music of the royal courts must be known. Ancient Greece and
Persia must be taken into account. The writings of Al Farabi must be considered. The more one discovers the less one knows for certain. One thing for
certain is that influence is a two way street. Except for when it is one way.
Another way to answer the question is in musical terms rather than in historical terms. Then the answer is simpler. The maqams are formed from
tetrachords. But maybe that is not what the guitar players wanted to know about.
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Ararat66
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Hi Jody
Thanks for your reply - it was meant as an open and broad question because from what I understand and have read it is necessarily complex but given
the breadth of knowledge on this forum I was hoping to get the kind of response that simply googling cannot reproduce.
The question on the guitar forum was really in the form of someone trying to understand this way of looking at music so he certainly didn't expect a
neat answer but a little enlightenment.
I'll have to think a little of my answer to him but I think my own question is has anyone traced the evolution back of any particular maqam before
they would be called that to a point at which the intervals began to form - I'm thinking more of the impulse to express musically one mode or
another.
I would imagine this would go back thousands of years, given the oud is said in some places to have derived from the Barbat some 5000 years ago.
Thanks
Leon
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Jody Stecher
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One thing I can add is that both Maqam and its intervals probably predate the oud. Flutes, harps —Daud (King David) is said to have played
qanun—and the voice are very ancient.
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Brian Prunka
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I am not sure about that, Jody, at least the modern microtonal intervals seem to have been a somewhat more recent development than the oud.
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Ararat66
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I think the Barbat was originally fretted, but I didn't really mean that the origins of Maqamat were the same as oud - just that the roots are
ancient. So was the development of microtonality something that came from what I will clumsily call a more 'natural' tonality rather than overly
tempered and did microtonality only become an obvious entity when measured against even tempered instruments ?
Cheers
Leon
BTW I am aware that I have asked a question worthy of the PHD I may never get round to doing in a busy week  )
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Jody Stecher
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The *current* various regional, cultural, and personal variations of microtonal intervals may postdate the oud but there are so many cultures who sing
microtonal music but who do not play string instruments that the chance of oud predating modal microtonal music seems very small. Typically voice and
percussion are the roots of all music. Instrumental music seems to start with simple flute and basic harp. Fiddles are pretty old. You rub two hunting
bows together. Sure Pythagoras and later Al Farabi and others have described microtonal theory using the divisions of a string as an illustration.
But I think that their theories come after the fact. They present their ideas as Prescriptive but I think they were Descriptive in origin. Even going
back as recently as the advent of early Islam, I'd be very surprised if there was evidence that the first people to recite the quran were influenced
in their melodic contours by the music of the oud. It had to come from somewhere and it does not seem that Mecca and Medina had much of an oud culutre
(if any) at the time. I'd say that the phrases and pitches of the basic Arab maqams were already deeply imbedded in the culture at the time. I'd be as
happy to be wrong about any of this as being right. If there is evidence to the contrary I'm ready to modify my views.
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  | | I am not sure about that, Jody, at least the modern microtonal intervals seem to have been a somewhat more recent development than the oud.
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Jody Stecher
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66 | I think the Barbat was originally fretted, but I didn't really mean that the origins of Maqamat were the same as oud - just that the roots are
ancient. So was the development of microtonality something that came from what I will clumsily call a more 'natural' tonality
Yes, I believe that to be the case
rather than overly tempered and did microtonality only become an obvious entity when measured against even tempered instruments ?
It was already obvious I would say. By the time current European tempering came to be, musicians of the various modal systems of the east had an
awareness and a terminology of microtonality. the intervals of different maqam-s had to be compared with each other. Comparing them with european
intervals came later.
Cheers
Leon
BTW I am aware that I have asked a question worthy of the PHD I may never get round to doing in a busy week ) |
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Brian Prunka
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You're right Jody, but we have no evidence of what that vocal music or Quranic recitation really sounded like. The qanun is, if anything, evidence
for the other side, since early qanuns had no levers.
While the oud would obviously have been modeled on vocal music and not the other way around, the early ouds were fretted and (it is my understanding,
anyway) that it is not at all clear that those frets were microtonal in the sense that maqam music is.
At best, we don't have enough evidence one way or the other. What relatively definitive writings on maqam-type intervals exist seem to postdate the
oud, and given that other nearby cultures (India, for example) did not develop these kinds of intervals, it seems to me that the most likely case is
that maqam and the oud developed in parallel, and the ouds frets were removed when the microtonality of maqam became too complex to be practical with
frets.
I am not a historian or an ethnomusicologist, and I too welcome any documentation that sheds light on the matter.
I am not advocating a definitive position, but I just disagree with your contention that maqam (as we understand it) "probably" predates the oud.
It may, but no evidence I am aware of brings the likelihood high enough to merit a "probably".
Maqam probably predates the removal of frets, and in certain areas may predate the adoption of the oud as a preferred instrument, but that is not the
same thing.
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Jody Stecher
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You are also right, Brian. What I meant to say was in relation to Ararat's question which was about the *origins* of maqam and what I should have said
was that the origins of maqam seem to predate the oud. It does sometimes happen that a change to an instrument will affect the way a type of
music develops but it is more usual for the needs of a changing music to determine changes in instruments.
On the other hand while early qanuns had no levers they did have strings that were tune-able and it seems that the early music that qanun played did
not evolve modulation to the extent that is common today.
Were the frets of the early oud fixed or moveable?
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DoggerelPundit
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This might help answer many of the questions being asked...
http://www.vwb-verlag.com/Katalog/m641.html
Available through Amazon, er, at a price...
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Ottoman-Court-composition-instrumental/...
Though Feldman is focused on the history and development of Ottoman court music, the historical references to other counties/cultures underlying
Ottoman music are many. His bibliography of sources is exhaustive.
Interesting bit beginning on page 133: "After the middle of the 17th century the 'ud and 'ud players are no longer mentioned in Turkish
sources...It was not in the courtly ensemble in Toderini's time. Yeketa noted the decline of the 'ud in the later 17th century and its total absence
in the 18th century...The 'ud did not reappear in Turkish art music until the end of the 19th century."
Also, an email to Dr. Scott Marcus at the University of California at Santa Barbara might be fruitful. He is a scholar in these matters, and friendly
enough to serious inquiry.
My 2 cents.
-Stephen
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | | You are also right, Brian. What I meant to say was in relation to Ararat's question which was about the *origins* of maqam and what I should have said
was that the origins of maqam seem to predate the oud. |
When put that way, I quite agree with you. Certainly there was a music existing which led to maqam music, although the extent of the similarities is
unknown. Since some of this early music did not evolve into maqam (Byzantine, Persian, etc.), the current system was certainly not an inevitability.
| Quote: |
On the other hand while early qanuns had no levers they did have strings that were tune-able and it seems that the early music that qanun played did
not evolve modulation to the extent that is common today.
Were the frets of the early oud fixed or moveable? |
My understanding is that they were movable (tied gut, most likely).
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Jono Oud N.Z
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An excellent book on early Maqam music is 'a History of Arabian Music to the XIIIth Century' by George Farmer.
http://www.amazon.com/History-Arabian-Music-XIIIth-Century/dp/18989...
This mentions that the 'quarter tone' intervals were introduced from the fretting of the East Persian Khorasasani tanbur.
Here are some quotations from this book :
'If the Romantic music was responsible for the loss of much of the older music of Arabia, it can claim to its credit the introduction of some new
ideas from Persia which were to lend additional colour to the music of the Semites, and influence which remains to this very day. Most noticeable were
the new modal ideas, due as much to a novel scale that had been introduced as to anything else. The Persian scale did not supersede the Arabian and
Pythagorean systems but found acceptance side buy side with them. East of the Tigris and Euphrates the scale of the tunbur al-khurasani
already adverted to was favoured.'
and:
'Mukhaariq (d.845) and 'Alluyah altered the old [music], all of it and introduced Persian notes [or modes] (naghamat) into it. And when the
Hijazian came to them... he said, 'Your singing requires bleeding' (i.e., it is too full of notes).'
last one:
'Zalzal..., (d-791), was a very important musician of the early Abbasid period...
He..., is known as a reformer of the scale, for it was he who introduced the famous neutral third (22:27) on the lute.'
http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.aspx
There are only two 'quarter-tones' in the Cantemir collection; Iraq (+Awj) and Segah (+tiz Segah). Here are the notes shown on the 17th Ottoman
tanbur.
Dr. Walter Feldman mentions in his 'Ottoman Court' book that the Ottoman tanbur of the 17th century was fretted the same as the current Persian
setar.
http://www.amazon.com/History-Arabian-Music-XIIIth-Century/dp/18989...
'Music of the Ottoman Court' book and these other very important books shed much light on the tuning of early Ottoman maqam music:
http://www.tfront.com/p-168063-demetrius-cantemir-the-collection-of...
http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9780754602811
Influence of the maqam on Jewish Chant:
http://www.liturgica.com/html/litJLitMusDev2.jsp#Maqam
This concert presents maqam music in Arabic, Hebrew and Armenian. Many of the Western medieval pieces show a clear tetrachord based structure also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sLwoG6QQXg
[file]24692[/file]
[file]24694[/file]
[file]24696[/file]
[file]24698[/file]
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Khalid_Salé
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"There are only two 'quarter-tones' in the Cantemir collection; Iraq (+Awj) and Segah (+tiz Segah)."
Does that mean Cantemir's Saba was like the current Arab Saba, and his Hijaz was the 'piano Hijaz' (for the second note at least), and so on?
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Danielo
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Saba was at the time of Cantemir probably very close to current Arab Saba. In fact, the degree Saba was below the degree Uzzal (= Hicaz),
i.e. probably very low since Hicaz is already flattened by one comma w.r.t. the whole tone interval (well, at least today).
Concerning Hicaz, the second degree was actually higher that it is today, so even more distant from Kurdi. Instead of today's Dik Kurdi (4
commas flat) the second degree was simply Segah (roughly 2.5 commas flat in the XVIIth century).
Concerning the actual position of the third degree of Uzzal/Hicaz during Cantemir's time, there is no clear indication in Feldman's book. It would be
interesting to know whether it fits with today's usage, which would also give an upper bound for the Saba degree of the XVIIth cent.
Dan
| Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé | "There are only two 'quarter-tones' in the Cantemir collection; Iraq (+Awj) and Segah (+tiz Segah)."
Does that mean Cantemir's Saba was like the current Arab Saba, and his Hijaz was the 'piano Hijaz' (for the second note at least), and so on?
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adamgood
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Lots of open questions here...
Actually regarding Saba and Cantemir, does anyone have any of those Cantemir books? Did he talk about Saba?
How old is Saba as a makam? Not too old by any chance? Was it a more recent compound makam? In my humble archive the oldest Saba examples are from
Zaharya who seems to have died in 1740.
To add another chicken/egg question...which came first, makam (old) Chargah or Saba? I'd put my bet on Chargah since there are chargah ilahis and
doesn't chargah show up in Cantemir books?
So no surprise if Saba came out of Chargah.
Adam
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Jono Oud N.Z
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I have both the Cantemir books.
I am working on gradually transposing the pieces into Arabic / Western pitch.
It seems that the 17th century Ottoman tanbur was not fretted with extra notes for the notes bayati and saba.
They seem to be identical to hisar and uzzal (hijaz) but named different depending on the modal context (F# - uzzal, Gb- saba, G# - hisar, Ab -
bayati). The notes on the drawing seem to illustrate this.
The intonation of the Uzzal / Hijaz maqam family before 1750 resembled current Persian Homayun.
Here is an old Ottoman piece in Saba by an anonymous Persian composer.
..Interesting as Persian music does not use Saba anymore, but...
I have a friend from Iran who plays the Persian setar who said the music from South Iran uses Saba and is connected to Arab Gulf music. Saba appears
to come from Yemen or Arabia. This mode is common to Bedouin folk music, they just use the lower tetrachord. I heard some Bedouins playing this
version in the desert in Jordan.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/5265703183/
Also, here is a 16th century Rast piece .
This piece modulates to: 1. Saba, and 2. Nahawand (according to Owen Wright), the C# seems to be an ornamental leading tone to the D.
The Uzzal / Hijaz family is ruled out as this group used segah not kurdi (called nahawand in Cantemir's day), as previously mentioned
Here is also a Jahargah piece.
The early form of Jahargah is the same as the current Arabic one with a modulation to Saba in the last section.
Here is a quote from the liner notes from 'Bezmara's, Splendors of Topkapi' (W.Feldman):
'We know nothing of the life of Dervis Mustafa. It is thought that he lived during the first half of the sixteenth century'.
http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Splendours-Of-Topkapi-Bezmara/dp/B0000...
These pieces are all from the Cantemir book (the Rast piece is on the Bezmara album).
I have fixed some mistakes in the Rast piece.
[file]24710[/file] [file]24716[/file]
[file]24714[/file]
[file]24762[/file]
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Jono Oud N.Z
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I had to edit my previous comments as I made a few mistakes, both with the comments with and the sheet music for Bashraf Rast.
After reading Cantemir's notes in Owen Wright's commentary, it seems that Saba evolved over time.
The Gb - saba (modern Turkish notation - Db) was an occasional ornamental note in the oldest pieces and gradually became more prominent. The latest
Saba pieces in the repertoire explore the upper region more, gradually becoming closer to modern Saba.
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