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Jono Oud N.Z
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Pipa
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Edward Powell
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Pipa proves the ancient connection between the Far and Middle-east, and Europe.
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Erg
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Lutes and music travel from China to Europe. Is China the source?
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Jono Oud N.Z
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The barbat spread from Persia and Central Asia (particularly Bukhara and Samarkand) to China eastwards and to Arabia westwards.
The oud later spread westwards to Europe largely via Andalusian Spain and the Troubadours.
The pipa used in Nanyin music (from Chinese ancient court music) and the Japanese biwa resemble the older type of pipa (seen in the paintings and
sculptures).
The instrument seems to have reached China via the Silk Route during the 5th century AD.
The pipa has undergone some changes since the medieval period though and is now plucked with the fingers instead of the old heavy wooden risha (still
used in Japan).
The legendary Ziryab (d. 850 AD) is the famous musician who changed the risha to a feather rather than the old wooden pick in the Andalusian and
Abbasid golden age.
http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/93Arts9936.html
[file]25422[/file] [file]25420[/file]
[file]25424[/file]
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200407/flight.of.the.blackbir...
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fernandraynaud
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The basic design of a fingerboard with a resonator body goes back to Egypt, maybe earlier. Right? Longer vs. shorter necks and exact shape are mostly
"cosmetic" choices that may be important to document diffusion of stylistic elements along trade routes. A real difference here is the use of very
deep frets to allow pitch bending by pressure alone.
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David Parfitt
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There is a nice recording available of oud and pipa by Farhan Sabbagh and Liu Fang - see here:
http://www.philmultic.com/liufang/cds/duo2.html
David
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Jono Oud N.Z
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True.
Very good point.
The pipa techniques are very impressive and effective.
Interesting how the pipa of the Tang (and earlier) period has 4 strings, but the strings are not doubled like the oud.
As the instrument reached China from Persia before it's introduction to Arabia, this may well represent an older form of the instrument.
The pipa in the sculptures here seem to be un-fretted or at least without the modern type of pipa thick frets.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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The album with Liu Fang and Farhan Sabbagh is beautiful.
A perfect blend of styles and different forms.
This is a more recent one too, featuring the very original Algerian oud player Alla.
Also featured is Ballake Sissoko on kora and Henri Tournier on bansuri. Liu Fang also plays the guzheng here as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Silk-Sound-Liu-Fang/dp/B000F8MH7G
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fernandraynaud
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The links on the Philmultic page seem broken. I don't generally like the Chinese pentatonic minimal scale stuff, it seems like a parody of itself.
There's a clip at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvszmDsVdkA
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Here is some Nanyin music, not entirely pentatonic.
The dorian and mixolydian and other modes were used in the Tang period as well as pentatonics. They often had more percussion back then too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBQCvu2FWkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUDpNlJT7rs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KTvLbkRJRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL72rCjm52I
(Chinese Taoist instrumental music with percussion).
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fernandraynaud
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For what it's worth, may I be (politically incorrectly) honest?
I had a medium sized vinyl record whose B side was entitled
"Carrying charcoal to the militiamen in the snow", by the
Orchestra of The Propaganda Team of the Railway Engineering
Corps of the Peoples' Liberation Army, and I found that one
just a tad more interesting, overall. The A side, by the same
"artists", I found a little more rewarding yet ;-)
"Diff'rent Strokes for diff'rent folks" couldn't be more accurate.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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[file]25442[/file]
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fernandraynaud
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Well, yes. Good Point.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Chinese historical music (and culture, arts etc) from the Imperial periods is a new area of research for me.
I am only just beginning to learn about their amazing and beautiful culture.
Just found a good picture showing the whole band from the previous picture.
I just noticed a Persian Chang harp too (Konghou in Chinese).
[file]25448[/file]
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spartan
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Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z  | Chinese historical music (and culture, arts etc) from the Imperial periods is a new area of research for me.
I am only just beginning to learn about their amazing and beautiful culture.
Just found a good picture showing the whole band from the previous picture.
I just noticed a Persian Chang harp too (Konghou in Chinese).
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great ! these last paintings and carvings are outside the city of Datong, where there are some beautiful Buddha grottoes. thats an archeological and
religious place close to Beijing.
I visited this place but could notice the small details !!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%E4%BA%91%E5%B2%97%E7%9F%B3%E7%AA%9F.JPG
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jdowning
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Be careful about making assumptions about the origins of instruments or how they might have spread (and developed) from A to B over millenia - just
because they have a similar appearance in the early iconography.
The attached paper 'Why Ethno-organology?' by Jeremy Montagu - former curator of the Bate Museum in Oxford, England - addresses the topic so may be of
interest here.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
I read the article thanks.
I have been doing much research on both historical maqam music and Chinese medieval music.
I wouldn't just assume anything without looking further into the history and doing copious reading on the subject.
The Chinese acknowledge the introduction of the pear shaped pipa from Iran and central Asia.
It was not that they just 'looked 'similar' at all.
The history is very interesting, and I have no bias towards any particular ethnicity's.
It is good to know the history rather than just being too PC about these subjects.
In other words it was no 'accident' that the barbat and early pipa look the same.
Many things were shared on the Silk Road including musical instruments.
In the Tang Dynasty the pear shaped pipa and the Chang harp from Persian/Central Asian origin were popular with court music.
As the Tang Dynasty was an open period in Chinese history, there was music from Central Asia, Korea and other places performed at the court along with
Chinese music.
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jdowning
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What do you mean by 'just being too PC'?
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rootsguitar
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There is an artist/historian near here who focused on Paleolithic Cave Art and used his academic & artistic skills to make some thought
provoking recreations of who early ice age artists may have been.
He bucked a semi established academic theory in a way that was well thought out ( and thought provoking).
To his lens, cave paintings were not the work of shamanistic experience, but rather the work of young eyes drawing pictures that reflected their
admiration of the way successful hunters in their family groups were treated.
( like sports heroes).
The book is called " The Nature of Paleolithic Art"
My point may be that it’s not necessarily trying to be PC when doubting/re examining historical record. It makes history more accessible to me to
recognize this “ be wary “ approach on previous historical theory.
and encourages looking for unseen connections ( like if a historical group of people who focused on fishing as a staple to their community...an
abundance of fishing line may have explained where their instrument strings came from---maybe even first used by children who were imitating a great
experience ( like watching a troubadour roll through their village).
from there, one might begin to think of the weight of the fish they were catching and begin to speculate more on what size string would have been
strong enough to hold them.
And then the size of fish in other cultures who may have traded with them.
Of course one can go a little too wild with this approach too.
Lots of history is well established.
Cool thread! I really enjoy Ruan music as well.
( this link is tells more about this Alaskan Historian:
http://www.iab.uaf.edu/events/lsss.php?event_id=937
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Just curious regarding the criticism of my 'pipa' topic.
Is there any particular reason to deny the connection between the Persian and Chinese cultures in history?
I don't make wild assumptions without research.
The reason for the topic was just the fascinating move eastwards of the barbat/oud as well as westwards.
Thanks Rootsguitar, interesting stuff for sure.
Also I agree J. Downing as well, that one should be careful but not over-careful.
These facts are clearly documented in Chinese music history.
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David Parfitt
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Talking of barbat, this video might be of interest?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwHiGHX77y8
David
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Excellent stuff!
Majnun Karimov has sone amazing work with these reconstructions.
http://azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/54_folder/54_articles/54_...
Fikret Karayaya from Bezmara has undertaken the reconstruction of period instruments based on miniature paintings as well.
Many out of use instruments have been constructed like the chang harp, miskal (panpipes), metal strung qanun etc.
Interesting that Fikret Karakaya mentions that the Uyghur Qalun is the sole survivor of the original qanun, until his reconstructions.
[file]25641[/file] [file]25643[/file] [file]25645[/file]
[file]25647[/file]
[file]25649[/file] [file]25651[/file] [file]25653[/file]
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David Parfitt
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Thanks for the link to the article! I've actually been to the museum in Baku where these reconstructed instruments are displayed, but as there were no
photos allowed, I didn't have anything to refer to until now.
All the best
David
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Wow!
Amazing that you got to see them!
There are a couple of videos of the Azeri group playing them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1PpO6imryo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZBo4-2ULMA&list=PLB5F5236E2402F...
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jdowning
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So Jono Oud N.Z - what do you mean by 'just being too PC' - a term that I am unfamiliar with?
I am a bit disappointed to learn that my posting of the paper by Jeremy Montagu has been perceived by you as criticism of your 'pipa' topic. It was
just posted for general information and relevance - written by an internationally established expert in both 'Western' and 'Eastern' organology
"Is there any particular reason to deny 'the' connection between the Persian and Chinese cultures in history" (i.e. relative to the pipa and oud) - I
don't know but am eager to learn from you.
Space is limited on the forum to get 'in depth' on the topic - apart the few images and statements posted to date. Perhaps, therefore, you could
provide a link to any articles or research papers that you have published on this important topic?
I have no doubt that they will be well researched, informative and so, will be well received by everyone interested in the history of musical
instruments world wide.
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