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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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HELP!
Hi all!
All oud lovers nightmair: I just missed my favorite oud on the flour. And got a 35 cm crack on the first rib  
Please help me, luthiers!!
What can be done?
There is a guy here in Oslo that hopefully can do something. But he is not exactly a luthier. So I am hoping to get ideas so that I can help him find
out what to do.
All help is welcome and highly appreciated.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 645
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
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Sorry for your oud, I know this horrible feeling.
A crack in a rib is usually an easy fix, specially if the oud does not have a rose.
But you say it is the first rib, it means it is the rib to which braces are glued, I suggest that you urgently loosen the strings to avoid any further
stress or force.
I've seen ribs fixed from the inside and a paper glued under the crack and if the crack is open it can be filled with a mixture of glue and wood dust,
but let's wait for our friends luthiers to give an expert advice.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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I bet your heart skipped a beat there! If you could post a photo of the damage it would probably be helpful as far as determining the best course of
action.
I wish you luck.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Luttgutt, hang in there! It's horrible but you have the best people here to help you, and though all I can do is send good thoughts your way, and
confirm the obvious that ALAMI and Sazi said, (de-tension and post photos), at least this is not your only oud, you can still play, and you will even
be able to ship your baby if needed into the tender arms of a surgeon of love! Surgeons arise!
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Thanks a lot guys for your support!
Yes, my heart broke as well
Yes, I have 2 other topp "consert quality" ouds. So I can still do my conserts. So it is not the end of the wold.. just my heart!
Unfortunatly, I have no camera (that is why I never posted pictures of my ouds. Well one bad quality mobile picture, that I never got any responce to
on the forum). I'll try to borrow one.
ALAMI, the oud has no rose : ) so the chances are better?
And I did release the strings at once (thank you for your advise).
Yes the first top rib. The crack starts exctly between the first and second rib, then goes 3mm into the first rib. At one place, there are two crackes
that are 2mm apart. And that part is a litle "out" and I could not push it back in place.
Thanks again!!
I'll try to post pictures soon. And tolk to the "half luthier" in Oslo. And hope in the best.
Please, give me more advise...
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
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Brother, I don't have any advice for you... but I certainly sympathize with your pain... that completely and totally sucks.....
I know everytime I bang my oud up against something I just cringe....
Chris Walters
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
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getting hidden glue and fixing it yourself doesn't work?
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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This is a simple repair, really. All you need is a litle glue (any decent glue meant for wood bonding) and some tape - masking or anything actually.
Press at the ends of the crack to open it slightly and rub some glue into the crack. Now squeeze the crack together and wipe away the excess glue with
a damp cloth. Then tape the crack closed and let it cure for 2 days. There might be some work to restore the finish, depending on the fit of the crack
edges, but it should be stable enough to play.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Thanks a lot Dr. Oud. Now I am more releafed.
Still one problem:
The crack starts exctly between the first and second rib, then goes 3mm into the first rib. At one place, there are two crackes that are 2mm apart.
And that part is a litle "out" and I could not push it back in place.
How can I push it back in place? It looks to me like I'll have to pull the ribs apart to be able to push it in!?
Christian brother, thanks a lot for your moral support.
Katakofka: I don't know if I have the heart to try it myself. Need some incouragment maybe : )
Thanks again Dr. and all of you guys.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Pictures, please! I don't know, but maybe you can undo the glue on a rib enough to allow you to push the piece back in? Someone much more qualified
can help you. But allow me one thing, coming from Harpsichord where instruments are often many many decades, and sometimes several centuries, old.
Whatever you do, do not use any glue other than "hide glue", animal skin glue. Do not use that yellowish aliphatic resin wood glue. A lot of younger
luthiers use that crap because they haven't dealt with decades, let alone centuries. Animal hide glue is normally solid and heated up to melt it, but
now you can get liquid hide glue, e.g. Titebond Liquid Hide Wood Glue, that doesn't have to be heated up. The reason we only use hide glue on
instruments is because 1) it can be undone with heat and a little moisture, so if you mess up the repair you can completely do it over 2) hide glue
bonds to itself, modern wood glues do not once they dry; if you want to undo and redo a repair, good luck, you will have to scrape off all the old
glue 3) hide glue pulls the wood pieces together as it sets 4) hide glue dries very beautiful with a transparent amber look. The fact that hide glue
does not "creep" under strain is probably irrelevant here. So I wouldn't worry too much, if you use the right glue, do the repair as best you know
how, secure in the knowledge that it can be undone and done again. Violins that are several centuries old are also routinely unglued and repaired.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Thanks a lot, fernandraynaud!
So it is Titebond Liquid Hide Wood Glue I should use, right?
I suppose I should then phone the maker and ask him what glue he used in order to losen the rib!?
Thanks again guys for your support and help.. it is GRATE help.
p.s. I'll try to borrowo a cameri tomorrow.
Geko
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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The "out" rib area is due to the residual stress in the wood from bending the rib into shape. The crack relieves the stress and the rib is retuning to
it's natural shape. It is very difficult to push it back under anycircumstances, but you could apply some heat (heat gun or hair dryer) and hold it
down until it cools. Liquid hide glue does not have the strength or heat resistance comparable to cooked hide glue. If you can't manage the cooked
glue, aliphatic glue is a better choice.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Thanks again Dr.Oud.
I'll check on the cooked glue. If it is diffecult for me to handel, I'll get help somewhere!
Thanks to you guys, I am starting to understand more about the instrument I love, and have played for 30 years 
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Heating hide glue is very simple, you use a little pot in a pot of hot water. 65 deg Celsius. A pound of hide glue costs about 10-15 Euros. A good
approach:
http://www.spurlocktools.com/id57.htm
I have never measured the strength of the liquid hide glue, I've used it OK on harpsichord and clavichord soundboard cracks, so if DrOud has tested
it, that's very valuable information. No question the heated stuff is best. But, Richard, I cannot understand using aliphatic resin glue unless you
are sure you will never have to undo and repair the bond. You pointed out yourself that removing a rosette was only easy if they used hide glue to
attach it. I have seen whole harpsichords sold as scrap ONLY because aliphatic resin glue had been used, and thus the instrument was unrepairable, a
good example is here:
http://www.claviersbaroques.com/LPAlbardaFlemishSingle.htm
Seriously, this is not to question your expertise, on the contrary I'd like to know how YOU repair instruments glued with carpenter's glue? have you
found a way to undo and re-glue the bonds?
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Richard is correct - Liquid Hide Glue is not to be recommended for instrument work and has the further disadvantage in my experience of having a
limited shelf life - it deteriorates and goes rancid after about a year or two. Hide glue comes in various strengths - measured commercially as Bloom
strength. The stronger glues have a shorter open time, useful for uncomplicated carpentry assemblies. I use a 'weaker' 'Pearl' hide glue for
instrument work. Use hot hide glue where a joint may have to be opened for repair in future - such as neck joints, pegbox to neck joints etc. For
random, 'once off' repairs of cracks, modern synthetic glues can have their place and may have many advantages over hot hide glue - dependant upon
the circumstances.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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OK, here we go. "Modern synthetic glues can have their place and may have many advantages over hot hide glue ". But, like what? The convenience of a
squeeze bottle? The alleged greater resistance to moisture? The aliphatic glues come in different types, the standard ones are NOT recommended where
there is heat and moisture, either, and the ones that can be used on outdoor furniture are not recommended for instruments. The problem is that really
objective data is hard to come by, for some reason. Apparently under stress, heat and moisture, hide glue is still the winner. I have to find the
reference, some study at Stanford.
Solid hide glue requires a glue-pot, and smells a bit. It sets quickly and you have to work faster than with aliphatics, so the convenience of
aliphatics is undeniable. But is it worth it?
I don't objectively know what the limitations of different glues are. All too often we hear only folklore. A little more detailed observations would
be great. For hide glue, we agree, it's unquestionably better to stick to the
hot melt kind. As to aliphatic yellow glue vs. hide glue, technically most say it's a matter of preference. But I sure prefer something I can reverse,
if there's no disadvantage.
There are vocal guitarmakers who say that hide glue makes for a noticeably better sounding instrument because of its brittleness and sound-conducting,
like shellac is the only finish to use on soundboards. In fact it's a BIG fad, people are asking for instruments 100% bonded with hide glue. For
instance look at the post near the bottom of the page by Montuoro Guitars.
http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/85249
Frankly, when I came here, I was surprised to find many Western oud makers using aliphatic resin glue. The guys in the Middle East thankfully stick to
tradition. What is the problem with only using hide glue? Anyone?
To repair this crack, let's say there's some trial and error involved, why on earth would Luttgutt use a "modern" glue that cannot easily be undone
and rebonded, if hide glue is as strong as aliphatic, dries clear and glossy, draws the pieces together, doesn't creep, etc etc? Also if he has to
heat the rib to re-form it, then let it cool, wouldn't hide glue work well in that scenario? I like this quote: "Work quickly but smoothly, and don't
worry, if something goes wrong and you don't get done in time, take it apart, clean off the glue, and try again."
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I had been running some tests, and what I suggest, Luttgutt, is that you take your time and do a lot of searching and reading before committing to a
method, if you're going to do this yourself. Your oud is not going to run away. Then look for some solid and some (unexpired) liquid hide glue and
some yellow aliphatic glue, and try some simple tests on wood scraps. You may come to your own conclusions. It seems most everyone here agrees that if
you can manage the glue-pot, solid hide glue is the best. Meanwhile maybe we'll get some more information from people who have had specific adventures
with the various glues.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Well, like repairing a hairline crack in an oud rib for example - just wick in a drop of 'superglue' designed for this kind of repair application
(check out the luthier supply houses). A random crack in a rib should not likely to be something that ever needs to be redone - unlike say, a sound
board to bowl joint.
I don't fully understand why well respected and successful luthiers use aliphatic glues for instrument assembly work in preference to hot hide glue
either - but clearly it works for them and their many customers and presumably has some advantage over hot hide glue where production time is of the
essence.
I have used hot hide glue for instrument construction for over 30 years so can confirm its well known advantages from practical experience.
I rarely use yellow carpenter's glue even for general wood working applications as it can be problematic in showing through clear finishes if not
completely removed from wood surfaces.
One great advantage of using hide glue for instrument assembly - particularly for ouds and lutes - is that you don't always have to 'work quickly and
smoothly' - indeed it is difficult if not impossible to work quickly enough to successfully complete gluing of rib joints, assembling sound board to
bowl or even for sound board panel assembly, before hot hide glue gels and becomes unworkable. No problem. The centuries old technique is to go over
the joint - bit by bit - with a heated iron to remelt the glue so that the joint surfaces can then be brought together and held in place until the
glue sets.
For those who are curious enough to learn more about how it is done, check out "Old Oud - New Project" on the Oud Project forum.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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Synthetic glues all have some melt point, so I have used heat - hot iron/ heatgun/heated pallette knife, to to open the joint. Yes, the joint must
then be cleaned to re-bond, ok.
As this thread morphs into a glue symposium, let's keep in mind that the topic was a request for how to repair a crack in the ribs of the oud from
someone who seems to have little or no woodworking experience. So I'd suggest keeping it simple. OK, so hide glue is superior, no argument, but it is
not simple to use. The formula should be proper for music instruments, the mix must be in the correct ratio and the cooking needs to be at the correct
temperature. Then there's procurement, the last time I bought hide glue I had to order $20 worth from my supplier. OR, go to any hardwre store and buy
a small bottle of yellow wood glue and just squeeze it out. Here's a link to some info for glue application.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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... or maybe squeeze some liquid hide glue from the bottle? I don't think we have truly established yet that liquid hide glue is garbage. Titebond's
own data claims it's as strong as their aliphatic, as long as it's not past expiration date. I don't think it's off topic to ponder the glues,
precisely because Luttgutt is asking for help, he may as well dive in.
Thanks, Richard, good to know how you undo those bonds.
An old technique for slowing the setting on solid hide glue is adding Urea. That's basically what liquid hide glue is. I have had good results with it
on repairs, I like it. If it was my oud with the crack, that's what I'd use. I'm insecure, so I want to know I can redo it, and I'm lazy, so the
squeeze bottle is nice.
Gel Cyanoacrylate (superglue) I've tried but it flows and always ends up in the wrong places like eating the finish, I can never be sure when it's
going to seize, it's very fragile as gap filler, and cleanup is bad.
As I compare my test plywood newly bonded with liquid hide glue vs. yellow aliphatic, it's very obvious why some guitarmakers are so adamant. The hide
glue bonded plywood rings like a piece of fine soundboard, the yellow glue bonded one is muffled, as the guitarmaker was saying, "like a pillow".
The liquid hide is a viscous liquid that flows into and "pulls" cracks, and it gives you all the time in the world. On my plywood it pretty abruptly
went crunk-solid after a couple of hours, where the aliphatic stayed so mushy for 3 days the plywood kept warping and I had to reclamp it. I don't
even see any advantage where production time matters. Anyway, Luttgutt, you can easily do your own tests, and if ever something tragic happens to a
friend (knock on w'oud), you'll be the one helping
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Hi again guys!
This has turned out to be a fasinating thread!
I almost forgot is it about my cracked oud : )
Dr. oud, thanks for pointing out the difficulty of working with hot hide glue. I understand that I am not capable of working with it without
practicing (a lot).
And your are so right! I have no experience with wood. I have done some repaires on a couple of my cheep ouds (rib cracks, fixed bridge coming out). I
tried both superglue and cascol, and the result was OK.
But this is my Favorit oud. And the crack is ugly and difficult (with a piece coming a little out).
But I know 2 guys in Oslo that have experience with wood.
And after all what I am reading here, I feel I am starting to get an idea about what to say to them (different glue types, the warming up to push in,
the squeesing on the edges...)
Ferandraynaud, you are right, I am going to take my time. No hurry! I'll lurn about the glues first. try some on some wood peaces (good idea : ) so I
know what kind of help I can seek.
jdowning, thanks for you clarifications (and thanks a lot for joing the debate (I have always been facinated of what you write and do : )
I 'll have to read all this a couple of times more, but it is starting to make sence to me
Thanks a million
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Just one detail on the hide glue fad. I didn't realize it had come to this. People are canceling guitars with luthiers upon learning they aren't using
hide glue, because "hide glue is natural" and "it sounds better", they'd rather wait 2 months than take delivery of an inferior instrument!
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Well, of course, all glues have different formulations (including hot hide glues) and must be selected, according to the application, and applied with
sufficient skill. Superglue is no exception and comes as a viscous gap filling gel (that will not flow into a joint) or a thin liquid of low viscocity
that will flow into a joint by capilliary action - used for hairline cracks that do not have to be opened up to get the glue in there.
Note also that liquid hide glue is subject to 'creep' so should not be used for critical joints under stress.
It is amusing to contemplate the prospect of prominent and successful luthiers - who build high quality guitars using modern adhesives - 'laughing all
the way to the bank' fulfilling more costly custom orders for those who want instruments made using hide glue. After all, how would the customer be
able to make comparisons? Sounds like just another fad.
If a guitar sounds 'muffled like a pillow' then there is likely to be much more than the glue at fault.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Thanks Luttgutt - Here is an example of a cracked rib repair for information.
I did the same as you with one of my lutes that I made in 1979 and, shortly after, dropped it (unintentionally!) on to a concrete floor. I was amazed
to see it bounce like a basketball across the room but not too pleased to find a crack running across and completely through a side rib - from the rib
joint to the soundboard. The ribs - less than 1.5 mm thick - are made from highly figured maple, easily fractured due to the 'wavey' grain
structure.
Lutes do not have open sound holes so the only solution, in this case, was for me to remove the sound board - not a problem - but sometimes there is
no preferred 'quick fix'. After removal of the sound board it was then possible to properly clamp the joint. The glue that I used was (gasp!) high
strength epoxy - resulting in a permanent repair that is still secure after 30 years with the lute in daily use under the extreme climate variations
that we experience in this part of the world. Like all glues, epoxy comes in a variety of formulations - some that are no good for this type of repair
as they never harden fully.
Not that I am suggesting epoxy should be used to fix the crack in your oud - it all depends upon the circumstances, each repair being unique.
[file]11026[/file]
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
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It's done!
Hi guys!
I read your replies several times. I read about the different glues (thanks a lot for the links I got!!). I practiced on wood peaces. And decided to
do it myself.
I found out that hot hide glue is too much for me to handle.
And I thought this would only need repairing again in case it falls on the floor again (and in that case, it does not reaaly matter what glue I have :
)
And decided to go for aliphatic glue.
First I had to press and push back in place. And it worked (thanks a lot for the tip Dr. oud). Now with rib in place, I thought this would not be
needing a try and error! I just have to apply the glue.
So I put the glue on, then pushed from the sides to open a litle and allow the glue to get in.
And voila! It is done : )
And it looks good enough. I can barely see a crack!
So to all of you guys who contributed to this
THANK YOU!!! 
I would hva not done it without your help and support!
Now one thing remains:
What can I do to hide the crack best way. And to make it shine again?
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