Mike's Oud Forums

Why must one play with a risha?

jenni - 2-16-2010 at 09:50 AM

I had a friend over the other day who plays classical guitar, and he started playing my oud with his fingernails! It didn't sound as nice to me, and I was trying to explain to him that you don't do that on the oud. So why exactly is it that you must use a risha? I imagine it is the amount of force it allows you to play with? To me it simply didn't have the same sound, but how do I explain why to someone who knows virtually nothing about the style?

Thanks,
Jenni

ameer - 2-16-2010 at 11:18 AM

I know at least one of the factors is the sonic response of paired versus single strings; pairing up two identical strings at the same pitch dulls the inherent attack of the sound a bit. I don't know if it's the force, angle, or what, but the risha manages to compensate for this while still producing a unique sound.

Aymara - 2-17-2010 at 03:24 AM

Hi Jenni!
Quote: Originally posted by jenni  
So why exactly is it that you must use a risha?


In my opinion, it is not a MUST, but a matter of taste, if you use a risha and especially which kind (material and shape) of risha you choose.

At the end of last year we had a very long thread about different risha types and how they affect the sound ... the conclusion was, that to the liking of most people here a risha made of buffalo horn sounded best.

I myself use two very different picking techniques, depending on the desired "mood":

1. I use a turkey feather's quill as risha,
2. I pick the strings with my fingertips (not the nails), similar to the medieval lute players.

The second technique gives a very warm bassy sound on the wound strings.

David.B - 2-17-2010 at 06:31 AM

Hi jenni,

Why don't you play his guitar with your risha and see what he thinks ?

Medieval lutes use "chœurs" (pair of two identical strings at the same pitch) without risha technique.

I think everything is interesting, I asked for the medieval lute players technique during an exhibition. A woman showed me how to play with "le gras" (the fat) of 3 fingers (thumb index and middle). Interesting alternative sound... but I gave up because the little space between strings drove me crazy :shrug: Chris you're more patient than I am !

The risha is important, the harmonic node you pluck too.

Aymara - 2-17-2010 at 08:28 AM

Hi David!
Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
... but I gave up because the little space between strings drove me crazy :shrug: Chris you're more patient than I am !


Mmh ... maybe I just have more slender fingers? That theory comes to my mind, when I read your statement about the space between the strings. Did you mean the space between the courses or between the strings of one course?

BTW ... Jenni, HERE's the link to the risha discussion, I mentioned.

David.B - 2-17-2010 at 09:09 AM

Hi Chris, long time ago (full time job + music) :)

I mean between courses, of course ;)

I've forgotten courses for "choeur"...

To complete the link up above (now I know where comes from Aymara !) the link about the harmonic nodes (for fingers or risha or whatever) :

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10167#pid68...

Aymara - 2-17-2010 at 10:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
..., long time ago (full time job + music) :)


Maybe try it again ... I think it's worth it. On Youtube I noticed, that many players use the fingertips for quiet smooth notes ... they hold the risha with the little and the ring finger meanwhile.
Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
... now I know where comes from Aymara ...


Yes, my parakeets ;)

jdowning - 2-17-2010 at 12:34 PM

Where is the evidence to support the idea that medieval lutes were played with fingertips? The iconography seems to confirm otherwise - i.e. that the early European lutes were played with a risha - like the oud.
The earliest printed lute tablatures confirm that even during first part of the
16th C both risha and fingertips were used particularly in duet playing where the player using a risha would play a fast monophonic melodic line over a harmonic polyphonic ground provided by the other player using fingertips. It is said that one of the famous Italian lute virtuosi used metal picks attached to thumb and first finger - there is nothing new in this world!

The earliest fingertip style of lute playing - the so called 'thumb inside' technique used by many professional lute players these days (completely different from the classical guitarists right hand technique) - seems to be a transition from risha technique where the lute player uses thumb and forefinger alternately to pluck the strings - the hand held almost as if the risha had been taken away leaving only the fingers tips to do the job.

spyblaster - 2-17-2010 at 12:38 PM

well... i dont agree with the "MUST" either. as we have seen a lot of masters usin' thier nails. the style i like is using the pick n nails together. as a lot of guitarists use both the pick n nails. but whatever i do, i still prefer to have the pick in my hand.

Aymara - 2-17-2010 at 01:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
... there is nothing new in this world!


Hehe, shure ;)

But who cares ... interesting for this discussion is, that there are "new" means of expression, if we don't always play with a risha, be it playing with the fingertips or the nails.

mrkmni - 2-17-2010 at 01:55 PM

I think the fingernails do nopt give the real sound of the oud... It needs force to get the sound.

jdowning - 2-17-2010 at 06:35 PM

You reckon that you pick the strings with "fingertips (not the nails) - similar to the medieval lute players"?
So, where is the historical evidence in support of this statement Aymara?
Just curious.

Aymara - 2-18-2010 at 12:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  
... It needs force to get the sound.


Usually YES, but as said before, it's not uncommon nowadays, that even famaous oud players use different techniques sometimes, like fingernails or fingertips ... even chords are played, though seldom ... just a matter of personal expression in playing.
Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
So, where is the historical evidence in support of this statement Aymara?


Ok, I have to correct myself ... I rechecked, what the German Lute Association documented:

In the middle ages the lute was mainly played with a feather (risha) and "fingerpicking" started in Renaissance.

David.B - 2-18-2010 at 02:12 AM

This thread starts to get interesting !

First of all, to ameer, the best video I found where you can see the technique of the right hand on courses :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x21pdf_dufaut-sarabande-et-double-...

But this (archi)lute is not medieval. Your right jdowing, this technique came after the XVe century. I found a great video (sorry it's French) where you can see a sort of risha at 01:34 (image) and 17:10 (live) :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xa6nnc_instruments-a-cordes-au-moy...

Also a feather at 00:55 (image) :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xa6ntu_instruments-%C3%A0-cordes-a...

Aymara - 2-18-2010 at 02:57 AM

Hi again,

regarding the original question, two further things came to my mind ... to make oud teachers mad :D

1. Naseer Shamma's finger tapping technique,

2. Awad Ahmodi's unusal risha technique and his use of chords.

fernandraynaud - 2-18-2010 at 04:22 AM

You can make sounds with anything, and a lot of sounds on strings are common to many instruments. But each instrument has only a relatively narrow range of unique character sound that cannot readily be duplicated on another instrument. On the oud that's the sound of double strings on a fretless fingerboard wrist-snapped or tremolo'd with a flexible plectrum called a Risha or Mizrab. Nothing like it on a guitar or a lute. So an answer is "because it's what only an oud sounds like".

Another issue is that finger-picking is most suited to concurrent harmony, polyphonic music with chords. It's no coincidence that it appeared when it did. The harmony of traditional oud music is sequential, i.e. coming from a monophonic line, and best elicited with a risha. It's the whole approach and technique that goes with it.

So if you play both, use both. A lute sounds different. It's not easy to play John Fahey style with a risha, and it's hard to tremolo with your fingers. I think only a risha sounds unmistakably oud.

jdowning - 2-18-2010 at 06:21 AM

Thanks for the links David B - I shall view them later today.
The Dufaut performance demonstrates a right hand style that prevailed much later than the early renaissance style. Here the thumb is held out (to reach the numerous bass strings) and the hand is held across the strings - plucking the strings rather like a classical guitar player (but without use of the fingernails). In the early Renaissance style the right hand is held almost parallel to the strings using thumb and forefinger to strike the strings alternately - the downward thumb stroke producing a more powerful sound than the weaker upstroke of the forefinger - creating an important rhythmic effect.

The problem in trying to get to grips with music of the Medieval period is that no instruments survive and there is little or no guidance about performance practice etc. So much has to remain as speculation.
Nevertheless, when the oud was fretted, I for one would like to imagine that it might well have been played polyphonic style with fingertips (on occasion) rather than essentially monophonic with a risha.
There is some evidence that the Arabs were first to introduce polyphonic playing of instruments (organum) ahead of the Europeans although whether or not this applied to the oud or only to other kinds of instruments is not clear to me. This style of playing (tarkib) is mentioned in several early manuscripts including that of Ibn Sina who, according to Dr G.H. Farmer "unmistakably describes the performance of the simultaneous consonance of the fourth, fifth and octave" - this passage appearing in the practical part of the treatise.

Use of a risha or plectrum tends to produce more upper partials in a tone than fingertips - which might have been a particular advantage in the past when the oud (and lute) were strung with gut or silk - overcoming, to a certain extent, the inherent 'dullness' in sound of the thicker bass strings. This problem was later partly solved for lutes (that were played with fingertips) by using octave tuned basses (i.e. one of the strings being thinner and tuned an octave higher than the other string of the pair). This added some brightness to the sound of the basses and resulted in a different sound characteristic than would be heard on lutes of a later period.

David.B - 2-18-2010 at 12:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
2. Awad Ahmodi's unusal risha technique and his use of chords.


Did you check the video at 17:10 ? The technique and the position are practically the same. I'm sure if we dig a little bit we could find an equivalent for Naseer's technique... Nothing new under the sun, it seems :cool:

Tony, you perfectly wrote what I thought but too messy for me to express it clearly (harmony, polyphony vs melody, monophony). And to stick on the subject we can see the progression from Middle-age to Baroque through Renaissance with this adaptation of a melodic instrument into a harmonic one : As you say jdowning, the early Renaissance players used their thumb to create an important rhythmic effect... closed to our karar isn't it ?

Because of our conversation I listened to Paul O'Dette this morning and a question is rising in my mind : Do the red strings and the silver ones are an octave tuned basses ?

http://www.harmoniamundi.com/artists?view=bio&id=35#/artists?vi...

(click on the image to enlarge)

Aymara - 2-18-2010 at 01:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  

Did you check the video at 17:10 ?


Mmh, the Ahmodi video is only 3:59.
Quote:
Do the red strings and the silver ones are an octave tuned basses ?


Yes, on some lutes the bass courses are tuned in octaves like on 12-string guitar, the other courses identical like on the oud.

jdowning - 2-18-2010 at 01:18 PM

For some unknown reason David.B I have not been able to view the Paul O'Dette image.
However, if he was performing an early 16th C lute piece then the basses would have been octave tuned. By the end of the 16th C string technology in Europe had developed to the point where unison tuned basses were being used.
Interestingly, in Spain unison tuned basses were being used for the vihuela at an earlier time than the lute - implying that the Spanish at the time had access to a superior string technology (silk strings from the oud traditions perhaps?).

Paul O'Dette (among other professional lutenists) is an outstanding practitioner of the early lute 'thumb under' right hand technique - demonstrating the high speed of execution that is possible (for a virtuoso player) using this method.

David.B - 2-18-2010 at 01:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
Quote: Originally posted by David.B  

Did you check the video at 17:10 ?


Mmh, the Ahmodi video is only 3:59.


No, I'm talking about my video :

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xa6nnc_instruments-a-cordes-au-moy...



6a00d8341c851753ef00e54f873eb38833-500wi.jpg - 92kB

Aymara - 2-18-2010 at 02:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  

No, I'm talking about my video ...


Aah, you mean the combination of risha and fingerpicking?

jenni - 2-18-2010 at 04:31 PM

Thank you for all of your responses! I thought they would go to my email (I was wondering why I hadn't gotten any yet LOL) which is why I haven't replied back to anyone.

Just today my teacher was telling me that my big plastic rishas are not very good, because they don't go back to the orginal position quickly enough after plucking, and a risha made from something like buffalo horns does.

"Why don't you play his guitar with your risha and see what he thinks ?" - he told me it sounded more "natural" to him on all string instruments to not use a pick/risha, because he can always tell when someone is using it. What my teacher told me today is that with a buffalo risha you cannot hear it -it's just strings.

"You can make sounds with anything, and a lot of sounds on strings are common to many instruments. But each instrument has only a relatively narrow range of unique character sound that cannot readily be duplicated on another instrument. On the oud that's the sound of double strings on a fretless fingerboard wrist-snapped or tremolo'd with a flexible plectrum called a Risha or Mizrab. Nothing like it on a guitar or a lute. So an answer is "because it's what only an oud sounds like". "

I really like this answer, I think that's what I was trying to explain to my friend, but not so eloquently :)

Also, all of this talk about medieval lute players' techniques... didn't the oud come first anyway? I know it was long ago, so we can't know for sure, and it's relevant to the discussion... but somewhat of a poor argument as to why one might use fingertips . correct me if i'm wrong

jdowning - 2-18-2010 at 06:20 PM

Thanks for the image of O'Dette Dave.B. The lute that he is holding is not a Renaissance lute but one from a later period (18th C).
A lute from the early Renaissance would have only 6 courses (or 5) with basses tuned in octaves and played with a 'thumb under' right hand technique.

Aymara - 2-19-2010 at 12:18 AM

Hi Jenni!
Quote: Originally posted by jenni  
I thought they would go to my email ...


You forgot to subscribe to this thread ... you can do it above your opening posting ... if you do, you'll get a notification email for each new answer. But you have to read the answers here in the forum.
Quote:
What my teacher told me today is that with a buffalo risha you cannot hear it -it's just strings.


That was the conclusion in the risha thread too. But I think a feather's quill comes very close to that sound ... it's of a similar material ;)
Quote:
... didn't the oud come first anyway?


Yes, the oud is the "father" of the European lute. But I mentioned the lute, because this is the instrument where fingerpicking was used earlier as on oud ... as it seems.

But who cares, I think important for this thread is, that there are different string plucking techniques available as are different risha types ... different material, different thickness/elasticity, different shape ... and all create their own individual sound, which we can use as our means of expression or not, just to our liking.
Quote:
... but somewhat of a poor argument as to why one might use fingertips.


Read again, what I wrote ... I didn't mean, that one should use fingerpicking, because lute players did it in the past and do it still today ... I mainly wanted to say, that even some of todays famous oud players use this technique sometimes as a means of expression. That this has a historical background was more a side note.

David.B - 2-19-2010 at 12:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
Quote: Originally posted by David.B  

No, I'm talking about my video ...


Aah, you mean the combination of risha and fingerpicking?


I mean the "risha" between the fingers and the right arm parallel to the strings. This could be the primitive position on oud, isn't it ? Nowadays position looks like the guitar position...

jenni, to resume I would say the risha was developed for a melodic instrument which use a lot of ornaments (like tremolos and returns). Other methods are adaptations from an other instrument/music genre. As we saw for the lute, the "risha" melodic technique used in the middle age has evolved to a fingertips technique under the impulsion of a harmonic/polyphonic music.

jdowing, does it mean the lute hold by O'Dette has no basses tuned in octaves ? So the different colors of the strings just help to distinguish them ?

jdowning - 2-19-2010 at 06:11 AM

David.B - I cannot distinguish string colour from the image but the lute appears to be a typical example of the instruments made in Germany (for the German lute repertoire of the period) during the first part of the 18th C by makers like Sebastian Schelle. These instruments typically had 13 courses - the top two trebles being single, running to a separate peg 'rider', and the lowest 2 or 3 basses again running to a separate raised bracket mounted on the pegbox.
The basses are relatively short (compared to the extended neck lutes of an earlier period) so might typically be octave tuned (gut?) pairs. Also, it is possible that metal overspun strings (newly invented at the end of the 17th C) may have been used perhaps as single basses?

The lute thumb under technique seems to be a direct development from plectrum playing. This is most apparent when very rapid passages are executed where the right hand (held almost parallel to the strings) moves up and down as if using a risha except that it is the thumb and forefinger that strike the strings alternately.
There are probably some video clips of Paul O'Dette (and other professional lutenists) using this technique on YouTube or elsewhere on the Internet. Easier to understand when seen demonstrated than explained!

This might be a good technique - albeit from ancient times - useful to the modern oud player interested in using risha and finger tips.

jdowning - 2-19-2010 at 06:31 AM

Here are some short video clips - posted on the Lute Society of America website - of Jacob Heringman, Ron McFarlane, and Adrea Damiani using the thumb under technique. See under 'Instructional Material'

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html

David.B - 2-19-2010 at 09:16 AM

jdowning,

Just to confirm your words : "13-course Baroque lute by Andrew Rutherford, New York, 2002, after Sebastian Schelle (1727)".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg -> That's right ! After 01:35 Paul O'Dette becomes the Farid El Atrache of lute :applause: :bowdown:

Very interesting alternative, indeed...

Thanks for all these great infos :)

jdowning - 2-19-2010 at 12:45 PM

Farid El Atrache of the lute no doubt! There are some great lute players out there - like O'Dette - capable of performing some of the most demanding works of the vaste surviving lute repertoire (from the early 16th C to the mid 18th C).
I also admire Jacob Heringman's relaxed, 'laid back' style of performance evident in the video clip noted in the previous post.



fernandraynaud - 2-19-2010 at 11:36 PM

Ironically the bovine horn material is chemically and structurally much like fingernail, same stuff. Feather-stoffe, if you could get a nice slab to work with, would be similar too. Maybe pterodactyl toenails would be useful (Mojo, rattlesnake hide and shrunken skulls come to mind too -- who do you love?)

Horn sounds a little different from Delrin, which is a thin (0.030") plastic widely used for harpsichord plectra (because it sounds/acts like bird-quill). I can hear the difference, but barely. When mentioning the return, your teacher was probably thinking of the thicker Pyramid plastic rishas, which are more like guitar pick-stoffe.

The guitar pick is small and stiff. The long risha SHAPE and flex give you a leverage and snap you can't get easily from anything else. I find chords and bluegrass arpeggios play best with fingers, but tremolo and lead lines work best with a horn risha.

I HAVE tried rishas on fretless bass, electric and acoustic guitar. It's interesting but it's not that special heavenly match. Nothing like a risha working those double strings!

Aymara - 2-20-2010 at 12:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  
Ironically the bovine horn material is chemically and structurally much like fingernail, same stuff.


Yes, but fingernails are usually thinner and have a different shape. And as we found out in the risha discussions, not only the material affects the sound, but also the thickness, the shape and the angle between risha and string.

With my preferred feathers it's similar ... I need to file the quill's top round and not every feather sounds as good as the other, depending much on the quill's thickness.

Oh and btw ... a downstroke with a fingernail sounds very different from the upstroke usually used on guitars. This wasn't mentioned so far.
Quote:
The guitar pick is small and stiff.


Yes and no ... there are very different types avallable, stiff and soft, different shapes, plastic or even horn. I have one plectrum, which sounds very similar to plastic rishas.
Quote:
..., but tremolo and lead lines work best with a horn risha.


Usually yes, but I bet, it's just a matter of practice ... listen for example to the fast and perfectly sounding tremolos in the lute videos.

jdowning - 2-20-2010 at 05:25 AM

Luthier and lutenist Martin Shepherd has a good article on the 'thumb under' right hand technique (as well as other articles about historical strings, pitch standards etc)
Recordings and tablatures of the early lute repertoire too!

http://www.luteshop.co.uk/index.htm

I must spend some time going through the content of his web site as there seems to be lots of useful information there.

fernandraynaud - 3-26-2010 at 04:07 AM

Just had a little accident last night that required trimming the length of a horn risha to try to use what was left. I was a little surprised to find that unless it is long enough to at least protrude a bit from the end of the hand, my risha technique really suffers. In other words the normal risha hand motion is best if the "tail can flap" and if you don't have to clutch it in the small of the hand. Same with thin black Delrin. The hyper narrow nylon ones approaching the size of cable ties, or the thick Pyramid plastic ones, I dunno.