Mike's Oud Forums

Oud built 1889

Ronny Andersson - 7-25-2004 at 12:41 PM

I found this in England. The oud will be in Sweden the comming week.
Built by Bassil Al-tonajji - Aleppo.

Ronny Andersson - 7-25-2004 at 12:43 PM

:D

Ronny Andersson - 7-25-2004 at 12:45 PM

:airguitar:

Ronny Andersson - 7-25-2004 at 12:47 PM

who cares about the soundboard and strings?:xtreme:

1889 oud

wfspark - 7-25-2004 at 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
who cares about the soundboard and strings?:xtreme:
What style of oud is that?

William F. Sparks

wfspark - 7-25-2004 at 01:22 PM

What style of oud is that
Quote:
Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
who cares about the soundboard and strings?:xtreme:

Old oud

spyrosc - 7-25-2004 at 01:23 PM

William,

This is old-style Syrian

Spyros C.

1889 oud

wfspark - 7-25-2004 at 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
who cares about the soundboard and strings?:xtreme:
What type of oud is that?

William F. Sparks

Ronny Andersson - 7-25-2004 at 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wfspark
Quote:
Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
who cares about the soundboard and strings?:xtreme:
What type of oud is that?

William F. Sparks


Collectors item.

That was a hard one..

nadir - 7-25-2004 at 01:45 PM

:D!!!!!

Jameel - 7-25-2004 at 02:42 PM

Fantastic, Ronny.

It's amazing what is out there. Just imagine what lies in people's attics gathering dust.....

Ronny Andersson - 7-26-2004 at 02:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jameel
Fantastic, Ronny.

It's amazing what is out there. Just imagine what lies in people's attics gathering dust.....


Jameel, I have located a Syrian made oud in a British museum that also is from the late 19th century and the label is not translated! The oud have lot of decorations (no photos) and is in very good condition. I hope to take a look at it soon.

Also I need information about the builder of my own oud.

Elie Riachi - 7-26-2004 at 07:01 AM

This old Arabic oud looks like what the European lute came from. The bowl of the Eurpean lute resembles the bowl of this oud. I can also see the tied frets on the finger board, but that may be something the previous owner added later since it was probably used for lute music.

Nice find.

Elie

Tied frets?

wfspark - 7-31-2004 at 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Elie Riachi
This old Arabic oud looks like what the European lute came from. The bowl of the Eurpean lute resembles the bowl of this oud. I can also see the tied frets on the finger board, but that may be something the previous owner added later since it was probably used for lute music.

Nice find.

Elie
Are tied frets normal for old style Syrian ouds?

William F. Sparks

Ronny Andersson - 7-31-2004 at 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wfspark
Quote:
Originally posted by Elie Riachi
This old Arabic oud looks like what the European lute came from. The bowl of the Eurpean lute resembles the bowl of this oud. I can also see the tied frets on the finger board, but that may be something the previous owner added later since it was probably used for lute music.

Nice find.

Elie
Are tied frets normal for old style Syrian ouds?

William F. Sparks


I believe the pegs, string and frets are later additions on this particular oud.

chuckerbutty - 8-1-2004 at 12:31 AM

Now that you mention it Elie, the bowl of this oud is quite lute-like. It resembles the slender teardrop shape used by makers like Maler and Frei in the 1540s - it is also known as the Bologna shape, because that is where these makers were based. I doubt whether there is any connection between this oud and a lute, though.

Nice find, Ronny.

Dr. Oud - 8-1-2004 at 07:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckerbutty
Now that you mention it Elie, the bowl of this oud is quite lute-like. It resembles the slender teardrop shape used by makers like Maler and Frei in the 1540s - it is also known as the Bologna shape, because that is where these makers were based. I doubt whether there is any connection between this oud and a lute, though.

Nice find, Ronny.


Roufan Nahat made ouds with this shape, his father Abdo lived in the era of this oud but very few of either of these maker's ouds have survived. Ancestry of individual instruments is hard to trace, anyway. Here's a picture of Tony Klein's Roufan.

Adel - 8-1-2004 at 10:55 AM

very beautiful oud indeed...
Dr Oud,
This oud was made by Abdo and Roufan Nahat, how do i know this?
Abdo & Roufan worked together and they produced excellent ouds in the name of Ikhwan nahats (Nahats brother) in Arabic....also it's written in Arabic on the Shamseya ..... most of the ouds that I see on the net are made by these 2......for example the oud which we saw not very long ago for sale in america was made by Ikhwan Nahat (1889).
The oud which Jameel presented to us as Hanna, it's again Ikhwan Nahat...
My Question , do You have any evidance that Roufan was the son of Abdo....because I saw photos inside my oud lables and they look to me as the have the same age...
Many thanks,
Adel

Ronny Andersson - 8-1-2004 at 11:22 AM

Couple of years ago I met Tony at his home and played his Nahat. His oud is a masterpiece but need some repair to be
acceptable for professional use.

Ronny Andersson - 8-1-2004 at 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckerbutty
Now that you mention it Elie, the bowl of this oud is quite lute-like. It resembles the slender teardrop shape used by makers like Maler and Frei in the 1540s - it is also known as the Bologna shape, because that is where these makers were based. I doubt whether there is any connection between this oud and a lute, though.

Nice find, Ronny.


What you are telling is also what Daniel Franke wrote about. The oud is still not here but as soon it's I make some measurements.

Ronny Andersson - 8-3-2004 at 08:28 AM

Here some new photos of the monster.

Ronny Andersson - 8-3-2004 at 08:32 AM

endblock model 1889...

Ronny Andersson - 8-3-2004 at 08:36 AM

and neckblock.

Ronny Andersson - 8-3-2004 at 08:47 AM

a last one.:D

Dr. Oud - 8-5-2004 at 05:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Adel
Dr Oud,
....My Question , do You have any evidance that Roufan was the son of Abdo....because I saw photos inside my oud lables and they look to me as the have the same age...
Many thanks,
Adel


I don't have any real proof, just a collection of stories I've heard, but here's a label from an old oud back I have yet to restore...

Dr. Oud - 8-5-2004 at 05:30 PM

here's the back, looks familiar, no? It's even missing the same top rib as Ronny's, Hmmm....?

Label

spyrosc - 8-5-2004 at 06:49 PM

Dear Dr. Richard,

The label on this oud is interesting. It seems like it is in two parts, top and bottom. The bottom part looks newer (the ink is darker too) and I believe it must have been attached by a person making repairs.

The top label has a picture of Roufan Nahat and his name over it. There is some more writing in front of his name but it's not very legible, and I'm still working on it. Underneath the label it says "In Damascus" and then some writing that is very faint but I believe I can see "Year 1882 ?" Not clear.

The bottom label says clearly "17 Haziran". Haziran is the Syrian name for the month of June. Then it says "Year 1912" ? There is a break in the label and I'm not totally sure, but it makes sense.
It also has the serial number of the oud "1639".

If I can make out some more info, I'll let you know.

Spyros C.

Label

spyrosc - 8-5-2004 at 06:54 PM

Sorry, in addition to "In Damascus" it says "In Damascus - El Sham".

El Sham is the name for Syria and some times also for Damascus (used interchangeably).

Spyros C.

Adel - 8-11-2004 at 05:29 AM

Thank you Dr oud....
Please have a look at the label inside my 1905 Roufan and Abdo Nahat....
Roufan is on the right and Abdo is on the left...
Adel

Nahat label

Rufi - 8-11-2004 at 08:46 PM

Greetings Adel,
Could you please send me or post some more pictures of the label in your oud as well as some pictures of this oud?
My email is Rufie@verizon.net

Oud Labels

spyrosc - 8-12-2004 at 05:11 PM

Interesting comparison between the labels of Dr. Richard's and Adel's ouds.

I talked earlier about the good Dr's label.
Adel's of course is partly hidden behind the rosette and you can't see a lot, but you can see what I believe is the French word "Freres" on the right hand side, meaning "Brothers" and you can see in Arabic "Nahat" so this is a "Nahat Brothers" label as opposed to the other one which is just "Roufan Nahat".
Also it says in Arabic "since 1880" in "Damascus Syria".

Then the bottom triangualr piece says "7 Iyar 1905", Iyar being the Syrian name for May. And then the number of the oud, partially obscured (one somewhat interesting point is they are using here the "European" word "Numero" in constrast to Roufan's that uses the Arab word for number.

The interesting question is the chronology. Earlier I thought I saw on Roufan's label in very faint ink the number 1882 and then in strong ink the year 1912 (?) on what I thought was a "repair label". Apparently by 1905 they were putting out labels as "Nahat Brothers since 1880" whereas, if I'm correct about the faint ink the Roufan oud says "Year 1882". I could be wrong and it could be that Roufan separated himself from the "Brothers" by 1912. Or this is not Roufan in the picture of Adel's.

Anybody any ideas ?

Spyros C.

Adel - 8-14-2004 at 05:30 PM

Here is another photo for an "Ikhwan" Nahat oud. Notice the names in Arabic on the shirt collars.
Adel

Names on collars

spyrosc - 8-14-2004 at 08:39 PM

Thanks Adel. I can see faintly the name "Roufan" in Arabic on the collar of the man on the right, and he looks like a much younger version of the man on Dr. Richard's oud, who was also Roufan. I cannot see the name on the collar of the man on the left, as it's totally hiding behind the rosette.

Of course it's not unusual in those pictures to always show people in their youth, and even to show father and son at the same age of their life (a superposition of two pictures).

I wish I could see Dr. Oud's label more clearly, because there is more writing on it that is too faint in the picture.

Spyros C.

Names on collars

spyrosc - 8-14-2004 at 08:46 PM

Oh, from the previous picture I see the "Abdou" on the collar of the man on teh left. I hadn't noticed it before.

So it is definitely Abdo Nahat on the left and Roufat Nahat on the right.

And it definitely says in Arabic and French "Nahat Brothers".

Of course that doesn't exclude the possibility that hey might be father and son (the brothers being more people not shown here). It doesn't also exclude the possibility that there were two Roufan's one the brother and the other the son of Abdo.

But all these aside, judging just from the label, it appears to be that Abdo and Roufan were brothers.

Spyros C.

Adel - 8-15-2004 at 05:43 AM

Spyroc c,
I know only of 1 Roufan...
also, I know that Ikhwan Nahats has produced thousands of ouds....this is according to oud labels
If you go back to the 1889 Ikhwan Nahat oud which was on Musurgia for sale, you will notice that it carry's the no 402,
My 1892 Ikhwan Nahat oud carry's the no 503, so in 3 years Ikhwan Nahat has produced over 100 oud...
This familly has produced more ouds than any other oud makers in the Arab world
Also, do not forgot that too many makers were involved, Abdo, Roufan, Hana, Georgy, Anton, Ilyas, Tawfiq.....etc
Again, this is according to oud label
Adel

Nahat Brothers

spyrosc - 8-15-2004 at 10:30 AM

Shukran ya Adel. I agree with you. There was probably only one Roufan. I was trying to plausibly reconcile Dr. Richard's information.

I'd love to see your 1892 oud & label.

Salamat
Spyros C.

Jameel - 8-15-2004 at 11:51 AM

Yes, Adel, We would love to see some pics of your Nahats.:bowdown:

Elie Riachi - 8-15-2004 at 12:10 PM

Yeh, and hear its voice also

Elie