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Complex subject. ... I don't necessarily go so far as to LISTEN to that crap.

Crap? What is crap? Someone's crap is another one's "revelation"

And please ... this Jazz is definitely not crap.

But I can understand Edward's opinion, but every coin has two sides, as we say in Germany

No matter, if you like it or not, this is an approach to make the Western world interested in arabic music/instruments, to let arabic music sound more appealing to Westerner's ears, which are not used to quarter tones.
A further example might be the Trio Joubran, who also let arabic music sound more Western ... or let's say they mix styles to reach the Western audience.

One might say ... huuu, they only want to make money and the Western audience is richer than the Arabic. The other side of the medal is, that Westerners learn, that there is more about the Arabic world than terrorism and Islam ... friendly people, interesting culture, etc.. I think the later is very important right now to get over Racism and bad political propaganda!

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But the specific cut you cued up, Chris, happens to sound nice. I would have to listen with good headphones to hear the detail.

If you have a chance, listen to the album, which is Hi-Fi par excellance, though some people say, that ECM uses too much reverb in their productions ... as always just a matter of taste.

ALAMI - 5-12-2010 at 04:06 AM

The word "Oriental Jazz" has become known in the early eighties with the group of Ziad Rahbani, with Toufic Farroukh on sax and Abboud Al Saadi on bass, there was also a oud player in the band but can't remember his name.
They produced many albums, the most "jazzy" of them being "Houdou' Nesbi" (Accalmie Relative, Rlativly calm).
These are modern versions in a Big band rearrangement and different musicians, no more oud but a Qanoun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8EhHN7nRQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMLKcSkx2Gc

Ziad Rahbani later on dismissed the term "Oriental Jazz" and started to get angry when hearing it, now he says that this music is just Jazz that happened to be composed by an Oriental guy and that there is no such a thing as Oriental Jazz.
This is to my knowledge the opinion of the "father" of Oriental Jazz.

I am not sure that Anouar Brahem considers himself as a jazzman, he likes to emphasis the "modal" approach when describing his own compositions. But a CD has to be put on a shelf under a genre label and I understand if he prefers to be put under Jazz instead of "World Music".

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 04:37 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8EhHN7nRQ&feature=related

Ziad Rahbani later on dismissed the term "Oriental Jazz" and started to get angry when hearing it, now he says that this music is just Jazz that happened to be composed by an Oriental guy and that there is no such a thing as Oriental Jazz.

This is very pleasant modal jazz IMHO... but there is absolutely nothing at all Oriental in it except a tiny bit of riq. So I think Zaid has described himself correctly - and those that label the 'father of OJ' don't really know what they are talking about. IMHO

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 04:42 AM

I am not sure that Anouar Brahem considers himself as a jazzman, he likes to emphasis the "modal" approach when describing his own compositions. But a CD has to be put on a shelf under a genre label and I understand if he prefers to be put under Jazz instead of "World Music".

In my opinion Brahem's music has almost nothing in common with both Jazz and Oriental music. . . . IMHO he plays totally in his own way - yes, bases largely on modes... but not Oriental modes, more like Gregorian modes. I absolutely love his feel and sound---- but I find it irritating when he is refered to as an Oriental musician (meaning, playing "oriental music").... and of course he is certainly not playing Jazz, unless you use the term "jazz" to describe an enormous variety of improvised music.

[my opinions only

]

Aymara - 5-12-2010 at 06:14 AM

... and of course he is certainly not playing Jazz, ...

And what do you call THIS?

PS: I think collaborations like this and the fact, that his albums are released on a famous Jazz label, often lead to the conclusion, that he is a Jazzer.

Edward Powell - 5-12-2010 at 06:52 AM

Are you asking me to explain why I don't consider Anouar to be playing jazz?

tchandler - 5-12-2010 at 08:04 AM

I had the good fortune to interview Brahem after this album came out, and one thing he said struck me: he doesn't purposely compose in non-quarter tone modes to accommodate western instruments/players, rather it's just the kind of mode that he likes and naturally gravitates towards.

I think a discussion of what is/isn't jazz is going to go nowhere fast! That's been going on since Jelly Roll Morton and nobody (except maybe Wynton in his own mind) has put it to rest!

Aymara - 5-12-2010 at 09:03 AM

Are you asking me to explain why I don't consider Anouar to be playing jazz?

I just wanted to show, why many consider him being a Jazzer.

Quote: Originally posted by tchandler

I had the good fortune to interview Brahem ...

Very interesting interview quote.

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I think a discussion of what is/isn't jazz is going to go nowhere fast!

Shure.

Amir ElSaffar

Microber - 5-13-2010 at 04:57 AM

Do you know AMIR ELSAFFAR ?

He is an Iraqian/American jazz trumpetist and Iraqi maqam singer and santour player.

For me, it is the first time I listen to such a music. A try of mix between jazz and arabic music where oriental music doesn't 'lost' anything to seduce the western listeners.

His music is based on the traditional 'Iraqi maqam' that let a great part to improvisation.

As a musical library worker, I haven listened a lot of jazz-orient music. The well known Brahem, Abou Khalil but also Ahmed Abdul Malik, Avishai Cohen, Dhafer Youssef, Roman Bunka, Ibrahim Maalouf, John Zorn... And for me the work of Amir Elsaffar is the best result I've ever heard.

In the Amir Elsaffar MySpace, listen especially to Menba'. And also the other tunes.

Amir Elsaffar website.

Robert

Aymara - 5-13-2010 at 05:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Microber

In the Amir Elsaffar MySpace, listen especially to Menba'.

Nice tip, Robert.

BTW ... in his MySpace friendlist you'll find Brahim Fribgane ... I like his Sahara very much as his East & West too.

Edward Powell - 5-18-2010 at 07:56 AM

Anouar Brahem - Stopover At Djibouti (Live)

by the way.... I missed this clip --- thanks, it is very pleasant.
the vibe of the music is very positive, and pleasing. . . .

however I would have a couple of complaints -
first: the complete absence of microtones seems to me to miss out on a lot.
second: melodically it feels to me that they are simply running scales up and down. My guess is that they simply decided on a particular scale, and then just are each doing what they want with it --- all due respect, I personally find this approach to modal playing quite irritating and even a bit intellictually insulting after a while. This is in fact not a true "modal" music because a "true" modal music (in my opinion) uses modes which have a melodic GRAMMER. for example some notes are more important than others, sometimes there is an ascend and decending order, there will be certain characteristic melodic motifs, there will be a "path"| (seyir) and a direction. In true modal music within one system there can be many "modes" with exactly the same scale but with totally different character. For example in the RAGA system there must be at least 20 famous RAGAS which use the dorian mode. In the MAKAM system there are also more than a dozen makams which are based on the "bayati" scale.

I love ANOUAR, and I am NOT trying to insult him or this music!!!!! However, just for the sake of conversation and debate I would suggest that the music on this clip is a degradation in both jazz and modal music because the truly advanced element of jazz (improvisation over a sophisticated chordal system) has been deleted completely - - - and from the modal music, the use of microtones and melodic grammar has been deleted. . . . all that remains is a generic scale to be played up and down at random. This is unsophisticated (which does NOT necessarily mean a "bad thing"...).

But these guys are GREAT musicians, and therefore they are able to pull it off and make great music out of it - but still I feel that listeners deserve to be aware that certain musical elements which took hundreds of years to develop, have simply been deleted - RATHER THAN ADVANCED FURTHER! This is my criticism, I don't feel this music is an advancement, I feel it is a regression.

Aymara - 5-18-2010 at 11:11 AM

first: the complete absence of microtones seems to me to miss out on a lot.

No wonder ... the oud is the only instrument in this quartett, which can play them.

It might have been an alternative to give the clarinet a pause here and there and use a fretless bass in these parts to make quarter tone passages possible.

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... but still I feel that listeners deserve to be aware that certain musical elements which took hundreds of years to develop, have simply been deleted - RATHER THAN ADVANCED FURTHER!

Mmh, maybe it's because I like minimalism sometimes, that makes me like this record?

Edward Powell - 5-18-2010 at 12:28 PM

on closer listening to this clip, they use very interesting rhythms. . . . and they play with wonderful feeling!

actually I really like the composition

Aymara - 5-18-2010 at 12:32 PM

on closer listening to this clip, ...

If you get the chance listen to the CD ... it's worth it.

Edward Powell - 5-18-2010 at 12:38 PM

it's funny how it can sometimes take a while to get to like some music

However, personally I think if these guys would only add a little bit on melodic grammer, to the scales. . . they would really have something super great. (as opposed to just great

) )

Aymara - 5-18-2010 at 12:43 PM

it's funny how it can sometimes take a while to get to like some music

The CDs I like at first listening are usually those I only listen to a short time. That ones I really like not before several listenings are the "evergreens".

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However, personally I think if these guys would only add a little bit on melodic grammer, to the scales. . .

There's not only one song on this CD

Edward Powell - 5-18-2010 at 12:49 PM

funny story about Anouar..... about 15 years ago I was in Morocco in search of OUD. Did find too much, so I went down to Essaouirra -the beach place- and one day I was walking past an art gallery and I hear such a beautiful sweet oud music (not oriental sounding, but just flowing and so sweet), and immediately I thought to myself "this is the kind of sound I also want to make" (such a simple, beautiful, and peaceful sound). I went in and got them to copy this cassette, and listened to it for many many years. It was Anouar - I don't have any idea what the name of the album is, but I think it was his first ECM. It has long solo oud pieces..... just magical.

Aymara - 5-18-2010 at 12:59 PM

I don't have any idea what the name of the album is, ...

On his website you'll find his discography. His first ECM recording is from 1991.

PS: I bet you talk about pieces like THIS ... HERE in better sound quality with band.

Lazzaro - 5-19-2010 at 05:36 AM

Hi folks, actually my main research is mix jazz with oriental music, and I wont share my last experience. This is a jam session with some Egyptian folk and modern musician. For me the most interesting thing is meeting musician of other culture without worrying about the result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X00K-fdqTFw
best regards

Aymara - 5-19-2010 at 08:15 AM

For me the most interesting thing is meeting musician of other culture without worrying about the result.

Yes, that can be very thrilling and fun. Interesting ensemble you were playing with.

jass - 5-22-2010 at 04:37 PM

Hey Guys,

Have you seen these clips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SxGJ1w4BFw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FLc53xwTtc

Would you consider this oriental jazz? I think its a really great blend, what do you guys think?

Aymara - 5-22-2010 at 11:39 PM

Have you seen these clips?

Yes, in the other thread here in the forums. Thanks, that you posted the videos in this thread too ... I forgot that.

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Would you consider this oriental jazz?

I definitely do and I bet I'm not the only one

For my taste this record is a must-have ... too bad I have to wait 'til September for the Europe release, but it's worth the wait.

Edward Powell - 5-23-2010 at 12:59 AM

Hey Guys,

Have you seen these clips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SxGJ1w4BFw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FLc53xwTtc

Would you consider this oriental jazz? I think its a really great blend, what do you guys think?

I personally wouldn't consider this "jazz", but I definitely consider this "oriental jazz"! [if that makes sense :shrug:

]

Thank God for guys like JT!
:airguitar:

jass - 5-23-2010 at 02:58 AM

Hello Edward and Aymara,

Its funny, I dont know if I consider his music either. I know it can be classified either in general. But I am very familiar with JT's work (a huge fan!) and if you look at other clips (and cds) like his Trio, I think you can notice a real style there which is different to other oud players collaborating. Would Tawadros be considered having his own genre? like Piazzola perhaps

Maybe not that far

but a similar idea. I just think he has a very tasteful style which balances all aspects of the players involved which makes it sound so natural and less contrived. It just seems jazz players can adapt to his music better.

Look at these trio clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoH2s1c0cyQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_pwAB6Oy7g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV7kVVrrEyw

ideas?

Jass.

Aymara - 5-23-2010 at 09:10 AM

It just seems jazz players can adapt to his music better.

Maybe because Joseph's style is a bit influenced by the Western music, he is confronted with in Australia? And it is more rhythm orientated as the style of other players, thanks to his brother. But I think it's also his own interest in Jazz. I see a two-way relationship and influence here between the Jazzers and Joseph himself.

The combination with a 5-string bass in the above videos is great, though I can't understand, why such a virtuoso like Ben Rodgers doesn't use a fretless bass here, which would suit oud music much better and enable him to use quarter tones.

I myself am planning of buying a 5-string fretless acoustic bass for multitrack microphone recordings with oud and framedrum ... though not being a virtuoso

jass - 5-23-2010 at 09:38 AM

Hey Chris,

You might be right, I guess its an understanding which I find some collaborations dont have. but whatever the case, I am really loving what JT is doing.
I dont know why Ben Rodgers doesnt use a fretless, but what a fantastic player? I also think Joseph's brother is a very different req player, very engaging and a good influence. What a family!
I dont know if you've seen this clip? Its not jazz but another good mix.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJQ0IaFW4AY&feature=related
And this was quite suprising, very unjazzy, more traditional playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWn2ysvVUZU&feature=related
I must say I love Al Gibaley too!

:bounce:

Aymara - 5-23-2010 at 10:33 AM

but whatever the case, I am really loving what JT is doing.

You seem to be a real fan ... understandable ... I like, that he is experiment-joyfully, trying different collaborations, be it traditional, Jazz or even a synphonic orchestra.

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I dont know why Ben Rodgers doesnt use a fretless, ...

Not many bass guitar players ever tried a fretless bass guitar (I guess 10% or less) ... maybe he too?

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but what a fantastic player?

Yes, but I myself like Anouar Brahem's current bassist's style even more, though also not fretless.

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I also think Joseph's brother is a very different req player, very engaging and a good influence.

Especially, when we keep in mind, how young he is.

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I dont know if you've seen this clip?

No. Thanks, very interesting!

jass - 5-23-2010 at 10:48 AM

Big Fan

Sorry, I wont post anymore JT here, I think...get back on track...

How old is Joseph's brother?

I didnt hear much of Anouars bassist to be honest to be able to judge, but I guess you have the album.

Aymara - 5-23-2010 at 11:47 AM

How old is Joseph's brother?

21, if I remember it correctly.

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..., but I guess you have the album.

Shure

fernandraynaud - 5-23-2010 at 09:53 PM

I don't know if Rodgers plays both, but one reason for not using a fretless bass with oud is to provide harmonic "grounding". If you try it, if you have both instruments on hand, you find that on some pieces it just sounds much better. There's also a harmonic richness to round wound bass strings that "blooms" best on fretted intonation, while the oud can "solo" over it.

Aymara - 5-23-2010 at 11:42 PM

There's also a harmonic richness to round wound bass strings ...

That's the main importatant point maybe besides the fact, if a player got used to a fretless bass or not ... on fretless basses we usually play flatwound strings, because Glissandi produce too much screeching noise with roundwound strings AND roundwounds are a fingerboard killer ... and roundwounds have more overtones and sustain as flatwound strings.

AND ... Björn Meyer, Anouar's bassist, uses a special technique here and there, that is only playable on a fretted bass.

fernandraynaud - 5-24-2010 at 01:46 AM

I also thought for sure fretless w'oud always work better with oud, and although there ARE opportunities, what I meant by "grounding" is simply having stable non-movable notes for the oud to float against. It's not a matter of quarter tones. Where Turkish music has the 9 very formally (in ways I have never studied) prescribed "commas" between say E and D, the Arabic way is for "sensible" notes to move around depending on Maqam but also direction of the melody and mood. So the E will be played in different places between E and Eb, even if by the Maqam that's in use nominally it's E half flat, and intervals might e.g. narrow ascending and stretch descending. If in a very small ensemble with the oud there's a fretted bass or piano that (obviously) does not adjust intonation, and even single notes on those fat wound strings generate a wave of perfect Pythagorean interval harmonics, as long as you don't try lame ideas like e.g. imposing a major third in Rast, the effect is very interesting, to my ear anyway.

Microber - 5-24-2010 at 06:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Microber

Do you know AMIR ELSAFFAR ?

In the Amir Elsaffar MySpace, listen especially to Menba'. And also the other tunes.

Amir Elsaffar website.

Robert

No other opinion about Amir Elsaffar ?

:shrug:

jass - 5-24-2010 at 07:03 AM

Theres some nice things, but Id prefer oud. Trumpet is still a Western instrument, so not unusual to blend it

Branko - 5-27-2010 at 10:36 PM

] and: ...degradation in both jazz and modal music because the truly advanced element of jazz (improvisation over a sophisticated chordal system) has been deleted completely...

So, are you telling us that Coltrane stopped playing jazz mid 60's because his compositions had only two chords so lacking a sophisticated chordal system or Ornette Colemane Trio did not play jazz because they played chord-less music?

I would rather say that common denominator in 'all that jazz ' is the improvisation (taxims included). And to paraphrase late Miles Davis 'We do not need white man's advice how to play jazz' (replay to Bill Evans); nor Arabs, Indians, Africans, Balkaners,...... There is no need for the western self-proclaimed protectors of the musical traditions, as music lives (and evolves) only in the heads of the living practitioners.

Just my two bobs

Aymara - 5-28-2010 at 12:35 AM

There is no need for the western self-proclaimed protectors of the musical traditions, as music lives (and evolves) only in the heads of the living practitioners.

Very interesting argumentation :applause:

But I think, we can cancel the word "western", because you will find such "protectors" or let's call them traditionalists all over the world.

Branko - 5-28-2010 at 02:25 AM

But I think, we can cancel the word "western", because you will find such "protectors" or let's call them traditionalists all over the world.

I define traditionalist as one who is a living practitioner of a musical tradition and argues against evolution of that tradition with fellow practitioners of that tradition. I really meant what I have written, as I have not seen such propensity to paternalise within other cultures.

maran - 5-28-2010 at 08:57 AM

And to paraphrase late Miles Davis 'We do not need white man's advice how to play jazz' (replay to Bill Evans);

Hi Branko - just curious, when did Miles Davis say that about Bill Evans? Is it in a book, interview? The Miles Davis/Bill Evans relationship was a complex one and I had not heard that before. Thx

Edward Powell - 5-28-2010 at 04:15 PM

To suggest that a music can be called jazz simply because it contains a strong improvisational element is simply false, in my opinion. Taksims included. A taksim is no more jazz than the aolian mode is maqam nahawand. Yes, the word jazz has been stretch radically - but still there are limits.

I also feel that it is misleading to suggest that Coltrane's modal jazz, and Coleman's free jazz contain only two or even no chords... on the surface it seems this way, but it is not so. Listen closely to the solo lines and they are full of chordal and chromatic playing. In my opinion this is the musical language that makes jazz "jazz". A chordal chromatic musical language that developed over a long period of time.

I guess my way of seeing this is now "old fashioned" - The musical world clearly does not see it this way now... The word "jazz" the world over has come to mean something else. I think that much of the music these days being marketed as some form of "jazz" is very worthwhile music - but personally I would prefer it they would call it something else.

My feeling is that when a soloist drops everything resembling a chromatic chordal way of improvising - it is not jazz anymore. When an oud player completely abandons the maqam system when making an improvisation, are you still going to call it "arab classical music"? You can, these are only words... but.......... isn't it a question of respect for the original art form (musical language) that took so long to develop? I am not at all objecting to change and evolution in any kind of music! I am only saying, that out of respect for an already established art form it is important to try to avoid confusing people with overlapping labels. Why do we have to keep calling all these different musics "jazz"? Why not just think of a new name?

Branko - 5-28-2010 at 07:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by maran

Hi Branko - just curious, when did Miles Davis say that about Bill Evans? Is it in a book, interview? The Miles Davis/Bill Evans relationship was a complex one and I had not heard that before. Thx

In a documentary, Bill told the anecdote himself imitating Miles's voice. After a gig the bend was traveling in a car and Bill expressed some improvement ideas and got that replay "Maaaan, we don't....". I can't remember, as quite few years passed since I watched it on TV, was it a series on jazz history or just about Miles.

Let us leave definition of jazz to jazz practitioners on some other forum as we may open the can of Verbal Diarrhoea and be more active on next forum on the list of forums. :airguitar:

My point is: Who we (westerners) are to judge or advise, for instance Anouar Brahem who is firstly native, secondly well educated and talented. who plays traditional music very well (check his album Qoos), on what part of his musical heritage he should apply in his creative work, as we are the guests, uninvited (mostly), scratching the surface of that tradition. I rest my case with this: one can play well only what was listening in mother's womb.(there are very few exceptions)

Aymara - 5-29-2010 at 12:36 AM

Let us leave definition of jazz to jazz practitioners ...

... and continue our journey to the next oudist, highly influenced by Jazz: Rabih Abou-Khalil

Let me show you three pieces, that show the broad musical spectrum of this very interesting musician:

Video 1

Video 2

Video 3

Edward Powell - 5-29-2010 at 01:04 AM

I rest my case with this: one can play well only what was listening in mother's womb.(there are very few exceptions)

This is a very sad myth I am afraid to say. That is a bit like saying a person is only able to speak his/her native language well. Everybody knows that it would be absurd to assume this. And furthermore, a non-native speaker who learns another language well often speaks with more charm and charisma than the native speaker - and it is the occational "mistake" and "mispronunciation" that gives this interesting flavour.

So please try not to perpetuate this myth because I feel that it serves to discourage people from undertaking serious study and reseach into other cultures, for fear that not being a "native" it would be impossible to achieve anything worthwhile when compared to the "original".

fernandraynaud - 5-29-2010 at 05:18 AM

Edward. I'm with you on this. It's a tempting fallacy, but a fallacy nonetheless. The main thing that determines whether a person speaks a language perfectly and without accent (the native vocabulary and grammar aside) is not exposure in the womb, but something like the psychology of identification, and the chameleon's reflex to avoid a beating. Two brothers will often have different levels of "nativeness" in their use of a given language, and close examination usually reveals that at critical moments one of them identified as e.g. "an American", or "un Francais", and the other did not.

And on the "Jazz" issue too. Those of us who listen to a lot of music can spot Jazz on the first few notes or a bar, even though it's much harder to formally define it. This is touchy territory. That stuff Chris is showing is NOT really Jazz. Nor is it Taqsim. Frankly I thank our lucky stars that such music interests people, it's good for business, and musicians have to eat. And it's great that new things are being tried, new combinations will lead to new forms. But it's not Jazz.

Maybe the "World Music" label is useful after all, though I guess it's supposed to cover "folk music" too. It's very tricky, like "New Age" being most appropriate for very derivative and boring music, yet no better label exists to tag the much better music of Tangerine Dream or Vangelis, or Jean Michel jarre.

And it's also right there, that Miles Davis and Coltrane played good Jazz, and David Sanborn does not. A lot of music I think is cursed with the Fusion thing: appeal to somewhere in between, and it's good at nothing. But a lot of people like it. God bless them. As musicians the best thing we can do is create, encourage others to create, and not worry about labels.

Branko - 5-29-2010 at 08:12 AM

This is a very sad myth I am afraid to say. .. And furthermore, a non-native speaker who learns another language well often speaks with more charm and charisma than the native speaker - and it is the occational "mistake" and "mispronunciation" that gives this interesting flavour.

Edward. I'm with you on this. It's a tempting fallacy, but a fallacy nonetheless.

You are right about charm and charisma, Edward, when it comes to chatting up ladies, but we are talking music here, so tempting analogy should not be used, although charming. Gentlemen please, list the names of the westerners which will prove the fallacy. I'll help you with first name : Jalaludin Weiss who lives there for many years and has converted to Islam (although, I haven't come across appreciation by native authority, yet). I bet, list will be very short.

Dreamin' can help us to handle the truth and bit of self-flattery and vanity to keep us goin' as talent is a curse for one who is not the genius.

MeNoGenius just hold her for neck and pluck around hole. :airguitar:

ALAMI - 5-29-2010 at 11:23 AM

The list probably won't be very long but worth making, I'd add to it: Marc loopuyt

A ref from David site

http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/loopuyt.html

Edward Powell - 5-29-2010 at 12:17 PM

Wrong again, my friend, I'm sorry to say. . . .

the list will be very long. You made the point so go and research it yourself. You might be surprised.

However if you want proof - just look at the case of Western classical music now being played in Japan and Korea. 100 years ago nobody would ever have expected that in the year 2000 many of the world's best western classical musicians would be Japanese or Korean! So give me one good reason why this can not also become true for Western oudi's?

Nothing against Rabi and Anouar because I LOVE both of them AND their amazingly beautiful music! - but you will find plenty of non-native oudi's with a higher level of technique and visible knowledge of maqamat than these two "native" players. In fact, these two players perfectly illustrate what I am trying to say---- NOBODY will ever question the authenticity of Rabi or Anouar because as you say - "they heard it in the woom"... but take the time and listen really really really close to these two guys. And then compare to some highly developed "non-native" players.... and then think again.

Unfortunately we live in a very biased and racist world.

ALAMI - 5-29-2010 at 01:20 PM

Dear Edward, I don't understand why words like racism are coming into the discussion. From my side I assure you that I don't believe in any form of genetic predisposition that would make an Arab or a Turk a better musician when it comes to Oriental music.
I think it is about the time that someone puts into it and how young h'd start.
The main reason for Japanese, Korean and now Chinese excellence in classical music is the number and the level of the institutions and conservatories that are teaching classical music in their own countries and the age kids star learning at.

When it comes to Arabic music, things are less easy, people like Weiss, loopyut and yourself have to go in a long and complicated quest where you have to really dig to find good teachers and references, even for natives it has become very difficult to find a serious musical education.

I love the work of Weiss and Loopyut and hope that the list would become very llong.

fernandraynaud - 5-29-2010 at 01:48 PM

But we all know concepts are best evaluated by their fruit. An exclusionary hex can be as easy to support, analytically, as an inclusionist charm, but the latter is a more positive magic.

There were two idiot brothers named Jetto and Cesar bumbling in the Val d'Aosta some years ago. A combination of pity, sympathy and expediency caused many a tourist to drop coins into their outstretched paws, especially when they started up their "song". The black & white nuns who herded them told us many important details, like the futility of giving money to Little People who could never remember where they hid it. This also made a good argument for giving the money, instead, to the saintly penguins who looked after them.

More relevant to the thread was their assurance that the song the dwarfs had learned was by those famous Americans, the Eberly Brothers. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that, convinced as they were of what it was that they were singing, their performance bore little resemblance to the original. And that is how many new art forms are created. Had someone convinced Mick Jagger, or Eric Clapton, that as a white Englishmen they could never play authentic blues, it would have been a serious loss, and it would have been incorrect. If not for them, nobody would have listened to those old blues records dug out of yard sale boxes, and the next stage in the history of Blues might not have happened. Be kind to your village idiots, inside the womb or not -- they are the world! :xtreme:

Aymara - 5-29-2010 at 01:49 PM

I think it is about the time that someone puts into it and how young h'd start.

... and his/her talent ... some people have the luck to be able to learn faster

Quote:

..., even for natives it has become very difficult to find a serious musical education.

Interesting point. What about Naseer Shamma's oud school? Is that an exception?

Edward Powell - 5-29-2010 at 02:05 PM

Dear Edward, I don't understand why words like racism are coming into the discussion.

Perhaps "racism" is too strong a word. But it seems to me that discrimination is a form or racism. However I admit that the discrimination I am objecting to is in fact not out of racism, but rather ignorance and prejudice. When I say prejudice I mean "pre-judging".... which comes from the myths we were discussing earlier.

I have experienced this myself profoundly. I don't consider myself God's gift to the sitar, however I studied it seriously for many years. Finally it got to the point where lesser qualified Indian players would get the calls for work before me - why? The problem here is that in Europe almost nobody is truly able to evaluate the quality of a musician playing Indian music, because nobody has the experience or education in that music. So how are people supposed to judge you if you come along and say you play Indian music? The simply can not. So they will always play it safe and choose the Indian over the whitey. And the same goes for the audience.... they will be more likely to go hear an Indian, when in truth he may in fact not be qualified to play in tune.

In my own case, this scenario (along with a few other things) prompted me after 20 years, to drop playing the sitar and pure Indian classical music. This is a pity for me, and also a pity for Indian classical music (which is slowly dying as we speak, and NEEDS people to learn it and teach it).

But we all must eat something and earn a living and also receive a certain amount of recognition for years and years of struggle and sacrifice.

I know I sound bitter, but in truth I am not blaming anyone - and the situation is totally understandable. I personally would be very reluctant to go to a bar to hear a Blues band from Thailand :buttrock:

---I mean, it just doesn't seem to fit. YOU GOT ME THERE BRANKO BUDDY

And I can tell you another thing.... I have also devoted a lot of time and energy into Middle-eastern music. But I have recently decided that I will simply no longer associate myself with any particular country or culture when marketing myself as a musician. I will simply state that I have traveled and studied a lot and have absorbed a lot of influences. I have simply become totally fed up with coming up again and again against a brick wall simply because of the colour of my skin and the place of my birth.

[but to be fair, I also appreciate the advantages I also enjoy because of those this as well].

Edward Powell - 5-29-2010 at 02:13 PM

And that is how many new art forms are created. Had someone convinced Mick Jagger, or Eric Clapton, that as a white Englishmen they could never play authentic blues, it would have been a serious loss, and it would have been incorrect. If not for them, nobody would have listened to those old blues records dug out of yard sale boxes, and the next stage in the history of Blues might not have happened. Be kind to your village idiots, inside the womb or not -- they are the world! :xtreme:

BRAVO!!!

Edward Powell - 5-29-2010 at 02:20 PM

Interesting point. What about Naseer Shamma's oud school? Is that an exception?

...just came back from there. It depends what you want to learn... I think it is great that it is there and it exists - but I have some serious criticisms also. I found the general maqam knowledge of the teachers very low. And there is a tendency to encourage guitar-type playing on oud.

One of the teachers there explained it to me openly. He said that at the Arab Oud House they are very very very open - - one day they will play reggae, next day "jazz", next day maqam, next day funk. . . . but the Turks! The Turks only play Turk! That's all they do (very closed people).

Good or Bad just depends on your point of view I guess, but from my own point of view I was in oud HEAVEN in Istanbul and a kind of oud HELL in Cairo. [but it can be the opposite for a more "open-minded" person I guess

)

ALAMI - 5-29-2010 at 02:51 PM

I have to agree with Edward regarding Shamma's school, we are seeing a scary proliferation of young Naseer clones, speed machine with very shallow maqam knowledge. I was lately talking with a young and excellent player, technically speaking. I had an old record of Nakshabandi playing, and the young oudist told me that this is the school of "sleeping on the note".

The "non natives" that are digging for the roots may be a chance for Classical Arabic music, people like Weiss are a better influence for young Aleppan musicians than a new Shamma school in Aleppo.

I understand your frustration Edward and I think that getting an " Arab" recognition would be more important for you than Europeans not buying into your being good in oriental music.

I've seen once Weiss on Qanun with the late Adib AlDayekh, only two men on stage and one of the best moments of tarab I've ever witnessed.

.....And we keep drifting off topic on this thread.

fernandraynaud - 5-29-2010 at 03:48 PM

Such a difficult topic. I have never liked what Shamma does, because it is guitar-like in too many ways, and ... I have heard much better and much faster guitar. Frankly, I don't think this is open to rational debate: accurately intonating chords and finger-picking on an oud may be difficult, but that doesn't make it admirable, it makes it silly. Use the right tool for the job.

The same goes for those symphonic pieces with oud, I can't fathom why they are so exceptionally terribly awful, except that they completely fail to take advantage of what an oud can do, and try to be something else.

But when I first heard Riyad Al Sunbati, this was unique, and I knew I had never heard anything better. Give me sleeping on the note, any day.

I'm going to say something that may cause this thread to go ballistic: it's going to take some fresh outsiders to take Near Eastern music to its next stage, just as it will take some non-western musical ideas to take western music to its next phase. I don't think we need to do, or can do, much about it, one way or another, it will happen anyway.

This womb-listening is I think a pervasive (and persuasive) chauvinistic nonsense, so those of you who by birth and culture can lay claim to womb-listening, please reach out and pat those who are learning Maqamat on the back when it sounds good, when you can say "I heard Taqsim in the womb, and what you play may not be that, but it moves me", because people who are learning their own way but respect your traditions, want and need your approval or critique.

ALAMI - 5-29-2010 at 04:18 PM

it's going to take some fresh outsiders to take Near Eastern music to its next stage,

This womb-listening is I think a pervasive (and persuasive) chauvinistic nonsense,

Now you make me really think of the late and great REAL Fernand Raynaud in his famous and hilarious sketch about racism, remember who was making the French bread ?
I totally agree with you on this one

Branko - 5-29-2010 at 08:01 PM

This womb-listening is I think a pervasive (and persuasive) chauvinistic nonsense...

Dear
That "womb-listening" is my figurative expression for environment in which one develops. So, please, spare me from politically correct righteous tirade. Have you noticed at the footer of my posts that I declared my origins, so I am one of "who are learning Maqamat on the back" in your words and certainly not surrogate chauvinist for Arabs or any maqamat nation. I'll tell you an anecdote as illustration, although not maqamat-land related: I have admired work in the field of folk music of a young ('genetically correct') clarinet player, graduate and masters degree from reputable European academy, as he was creative virtuoso with in depth knowledge of traditional music also. On other hand I had luck to accompany on few gigs a "hard core" folk clarinet virtuoso, as I befriended him, I put CD of the other guy on and asked for opinion. Did not take long to get answer: he is excellent player but won't get a cent in tips on a wedding.

I just have doubts that anyone from Edwards secret list would excite audience like Farido did.

fernandraynaud - 5-29-2010 at 09:07 PM

"I just have doubts that anyone from Edwards secret list would excite audience like Farido did."

No idea, I don't know who's on his list. My sentence about learning Maqamat was a request to "pat .. on the back .." people who are learning Maqamat with respect. That's all.

The passing of traditions through unexpected hands has happened many times in various areas. The Baron D'Erlanger was no womb-listener, yet without his "hobby" and his Tunisian intellectual friends, the 1932 Cairo conference would not have happened, and much knowledge would have faded before it could be captured. Farid would perhaps then have played sambas and not taqasim, though I suspect to just as much enthusiasm, as he was a charismatic person.

Cuban music owes a lot to the lucky making of Buena Vista Social Club and Ry Cooder's recordings. In Madagascar, much of the music was being lost and I'd have to look up the guy's name, but it was a Welsh guy as I recall who had learned the songs from tapes that were made as part of a bureaucratic project and were already lost on the island, and when he visited Madagascar, he taught a new generation the music their parents had already forgotten.

In western music it's the same thing. Bach's music was rediscovered after two centuries of forgetting, and much of Scarlatti's is being discovered as we speak. The operas of the 17-18th century were buried by the more dramatic 19th century ones. And of course the harpsichord and clavichord are just now being built according to original plans again, after being wrecked as "instruments of the old regime" at the end of the 18th century, then finished off as firewood because the piano was "more modern". A century and a half passed and a show-woman named Landowska was to the harpsichord (on a more modest scale) what Farid was to the oud. A technician named Zuckermann designed a simple lightweight harpsichord that he semi-mass-produced and sold as low cost "kits" of parts, and with so much success, that he single-handedly placed more harpsichords (some 15,000 of them) on the planet than all his predecessors combined, turning it into a "normal" instrument again.

These discontinuities happen all the time. History and culture take sharp turns for unexpected reasons, and the greatest traditions sometimes disappear or are carried on by "miracles". So, it's not a politically correct tirade dealing with Arabic music, and not at all critical of you.

----------------------
Ich bin ein Erdenbürger

Aymara - 5-29-2010 at 11:57 PM

..., just as it will take some non-western musical ideas to take western music to its next phase.

And this is the boat, Anour, Rabih and all the other musicians mentioned in this thread are traveling in.

And I myself, being less talented, jumped in a small canoe and try to travel in the same direction

Edward Powell - 5-30-2010 at 01:00 AM

I just have doubts that anyone from Edwards secret list would excite audience like Farido did.

My friend... perhaps you are stuck in a time-warp? The key word here is "did". You are refering to a period of time - a golden age for the oud when it was considered by the masses as the coolest instrument around. Today this is not so.

Please tell me ONE from your not-so-secret "correct-womb" list that as you say "excites an audience like Frido did".

Sorry to tell you - NOBODY, "womb-correct" or not, is coming remotely close to this now --- and it has very little to do with oud playing talent.

It is a bit like, 'go on stage now and do what Hendrix did... nobody will hardly bat an eye.... but look at the impact Jimi had in HIS TIME!.

So be fair, and keep your arguments in the correct time zone.

Edward Powell - 5-30-2010 at 01:30 AM

I am not trying to blow my own horn, and I don't even know if I would put myself on "that list"... but just to illustrate that people CAN be excited about a Western oud player - have a listen to this and read the 2 comments made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXqyPdCbemI

JamesOud - 5-30-2010 at 02:23 AM

Im sorry but Arabic music is strongly linked with language, poetry, phrasing and social understanding. It is this reason of why Western players are not accepted in the Arab world. The exception is unless they live, learn the environment, its people and language. But most Estern players look for the easy way out once they learn a couple of maqams and releatively make the instrument sound good.
Alot of the repertoire are songs, and re-'voicing' then on the oud. How can a western player do play them, if he/she doesnt understand the words or language. In this case although melodically ok and maybe technique ok, they still are not feeling the words and the meaning behind it. Alot has to do with society and we cant dismiss this.
Im sorry if this upsets someone, but just learn the language and take time to study the culture and it will give more of a platform of understanding the music.

Oum Kalsoum for instance can be hard to stand for Arabs, due to the classical Arabic, but once you understand and feel the words you can play with more expression with a strong grounding behind what your playing. Not just imitators.

Some people just want an express route to Arabic music, but its not just notes and maqams, its language, culture and society.

Thanks :bounce:

Thats my two cents worth...

Edward Powell - 5-30-2010 at 03:26 AM

Im sorry but Arabic music is strongly linked with language, poetry, phrasing and social understanding.

Very good point.... however on this thread we are not talking about strictly Arabic music.

If this argument would be used in general about oud music or perhaps all music... then I would say that it is another myth. I think it depends from music to music, culture to culture, and this point can not be taken as omnipresent universal rule.

Tons of great music is simply 100% instrumental with no connection at all to poetry and society. Why should an Arab maqam then be any different? Is it not a bit chauvenistic to proclaim that a person ignorant of Arabic language and society is incapable of producing excellent meaningful music simply with good technique, knowledge of Arabic melodic grammer, and a ton of ROCKnROLL SOUL :xtreme:

the point I would like to suggest is that at the bottom of it all - perhaps what makes music meaningful or not has little or nothing to do with language, culture, society, maqamat, sound, technique, speed, fashion, advertising, or any of these things. . . . but rather the quality of feeling which is communicated thru the music?

my 4 piesters :cool:

JamesOud - 5-30-2010 at 05:08 AM

"Why should an Arab maqam then be any different?"

Because "Arab maqam" is Arab and unfortunately has strong links to language and culture. If you want to form other forms and 'Westernise' it then maybe it should be Western maqam and should not look to fit into the Arab world or an Arab audience. Its the harsh truth Im sorry.
You brought up about acceptance (using Indians as example), and Im giving you my opinion on why Westerners as oud players are harder to accept.

"Tons of great music is simply 100% instrumental with no connection at all to poetry and society"

- Unfortunately this doesnt apply to Arabic Music, only in some cases but it is a very small part of the overall, hence why its hard to win over and Arab audience.

Cant the west even leave the Arabs with their music

or do they want to take to "their" next level, trying again to improve because Arabs arent good enough. If you want to play the oud, respect the culture, learn about it and as much as you can about language etc, but dont just create a music which is half as good due to the fact people want the express route. And couldnt be bothered with all the other stuff which people in the Arab region are born with. With life comes certain ornaments, certain feelings, learn them first and then do what you want with the oud and music.

Edward Powell - 5-30-2010 at 05:35 AM

I hear in this that the author is under the impression (illusion?) that the "oud" and it's music belongs to "Arabs". And that in the "Arab region" there are only Arabs.

Let's forget about Westerners for a moment, and consider: Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Jews, Berbers.... just to mention a few.

Are you saying that even these people can simply forget about trying to make meaningful music on an oud?

"Cant the west even leave the Arabs with their music" Thier Music?? Is the author suggesting that Arabs invented created and developed this music without any "outside" influences?

Can the author tell us what exactly is an "Arab Maqam", which ones, and why it is assumed to be purely Arabic?

Thanks

JamesOud - 5-30-2010 at 05:54 AM

I only mention "Arab maqam" because you used this term. Hence that would refer to Arab maqams. If you said "Turkish Maqam" that would do with Turks and "Iraqi maqam" to Iraq. But again I only used that because you right it previously and Im actually quoting you on "Arab maqam"

These cultures you mention: Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Jews, Berbers, all have a tradition and their music, and language and society which implements oud. And those people do it well.

A musician that refuses or is lazy to learn about other aspects about the culture and have a respect for the music and its origin is a shallow musician and that will show in his/her music unless the listeners are also likewise.

If a Western person wants to be an oud player, or any one wants to be an oudplayer they should learn certain aspects, of the WHOLE culture, not just bits and pieces, creating a mishmash with no prior knowledge.

You also say "perhaps what makes music meaningful or not has little or nothing to do with language, culture, society, maqamat, sound, technique, speed, fashion, advertising, or any of these things"

Then what music is this? obviously nothing of substance just noise created by a person in the hope people will relate. Study, learn and all will be ok!

Its my view and by nop means an authority just an observation. I cant hold people back from taking musical short cuts, just dont be upset that Arabs dont want to accept it.

Branko - 5-30-2010 at 06:21 AM

Dear Edward,
I was referring to audience not masses. As for the not-so-secret list just visit Oudism, Taqsim MP3 and Oud Videos sections on this site.

Let me help you to decide if you should be on the "list". Here is excerpt from one of your many performances you posted on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KverV8vgV18&feature=related from about 5th min to 7th min, which someone commented with"Ed you kick ass....very cool music "

Unfortunately, I will be in the time-warp for a while and unable to attend this thread.
Kind regards
Branko

Attachment: edward.mp3 (443kB)
This file has been downloaded 197 times

Aymara - 5-30-2010 at 08:47 AM

And those people do it well.

I think, this is an important point ... there are already many very good native musicians and for Westerners it's very hard to compete with them.

Let's compare with a Japanese Heavy Metal Band ... they might be very successful in Japan, but in Europe or the USA they will have problems to get accepted ... there's too much native competition and from the point of view of Westerners, a Japanese Metal musician might look strange.

With our mentioned Jazz musicians like Anouar or Rabih it's different, from the point of view of Westerners they try to enrich Jazz with "new exotic" influences.

Edward Powell - 5-30-2010 at 10:46 AM

A musician that refuses or is lazy to learn about other aspects about the culture and have a respect for the music and its origin is a shallow musician and that will show in his/her music unless the listeners are also likewise.

If a Western person wants to be an oud player, or any one wants to be an oudplayer they should learn certain aspects, of the WHOLE culture, not just bits and pieces, creating a mishmash with no prior knowledge.

I agree... and have also experienced - that one must go to the country of origin and experience the place --- the longer one stays and the deep one goes into the native culture, the more the resulting music will sound like it comes from that country.

But in my experience, as I have experienced in both Indian and to a lesser extent in the Middle-east, there come a point where one must decide how far to go. There are some Westerners who attempt to basically go all the way and then play only music from that country. . . . this is fine.

Personally, I always find there is a point where I feel enough is enough. I try to learn enough about a culture, and get enough exposure to instrument IN that country - enough to feel that I have acquired a good grounding. Then I prefer to take that and use it to enrich what I have already learned.

I spent 15 years as a professional guitarist - so if I would just drop all of that, it would be like cutting off my right arm. So I need to mix and create new things.

However, as you mention, there is a problem with this. The problem is that WHO WILL RELATE TO THIS MUSIC? What tends to happen is that certain people can relate only to certain parts of it - and the other parts disturb them a bit. The Turks and Arabs like the makam bits, and the Indians like the raga bits, and the Westerners like the bluesy bits.....

The seems to be the curse of trying to create something new. But I personally don't find it artistically gratifying to repeat music that has already been created.

Edward Powell - 5-30-2010 at 10:52 AM

Unfortunately, I will be in the time-warp for a while and unable to attend this thread.
Kind regards
Branko

Hey Bro,
Please don't take anything I said personally - I just like a good hot debate sometimes

and I also like to challenge old myths... but at the end of the day to a large degree I agree with the points you were making. Of course learning something from childhood give one a tremendous advantage... I only object to taking this argument to the extreme.

fernandraynaud - 5-30-2010 at 02:32 PM

Told ya it might go ballistic! This is an important and delicate topic.

If we are talking oud, the majority here (per a short survey we did) plays "maqam-oriented music". That's interesting. WHY???

I can speak only for myself. I didn't expect it, but I too started learning Maqamat. Why?

Because the oud sounds best playing its interesting body of traditional music that struck me as unique and worth exploring. It's as if you stumbled on a keyboard instrument that, unlike a piano, sounded fantastic playing improvised polyphonic counterpoint. That's how I got interested in Louis Couperin's harpsichord preludes. The same way oud sounds best to my ears playing Taqasim, so I got very interested in Maqamat. And it's a whole world I can only scratch. But, in all fairness, not many Arabs are even scratching it, let alone deeply learning it.

I don't think it's likely that westerners will learn more than a little bit of that tradition, but what I've learned I'm applying in my music, not Arabic music. Nothing I will ever play can be considered Arabic music.

There's a problem here that can only be solved with goodwill. If we westerners play Arabic style, are we "trespassing", and we are "not deep enough" in the tradition anyway?

If we somehow learned the language and culture for a few decades, then maybe we'd be accepted, but I doubt it, and if we were to be very gifted and innovate in that style, we'd perhaps be seen as insultingly telling native players they can't do it on their own.

If we learn some Maqam theory to use in western music, are we stealing? I think I've heard that one too. Maybe not?

I happen to think that people cannot own the wind. Or sounds.

The oud can be a messenger between cultures that desperately need such a messenger. I think the majority of members here know it and want it. I'm not sure how to best support it. Just keep doing what we're doing I guess.

Discussions like this one cannot be expected to be trouble-free, there's no need to censor or close threads. It's nice, however, to hear an encouraging word now and then.

Branko, taking 2 minutes of improv out of context I think we can make anybody sound boring. Are you saying Edward's a lousy improviser?

If your argument was that only womb-listeners can know a tradition, and you said you are not one of those, then I'm feeling confused: what is your proposition?

JamesOud - 5-30-2010 at 03:11 PM

"But, in all fairness, not many Arabs are even scratching it, let alone deeply learning it. "

Theres plenty of great Arab oud players, what is this comment based on. recordings in the marketplace, or the limited Western view?
The West often forgets there are musicians in the Middle East that havent made it to light. So mass generalisations like that are only generalisations unless you have lived all over the Arab world.

People can imitate and regurgitate, fine. Learn A technique, fine. But what Im saying, the music has deeper groundings in other artforms aswell as in language, poetry etc. These must be learned, even as a respect to a tradition. Its not about regurgitating, its about learning and growing from it. Theres the saying you have to walk before you can run. Some players just want to start running and thats the problem. Im not saying a Western player may not be able to feel the oud, the oud is for everybody, but Im talking about Westerners that want to "grow" the music, when they themselves have problems with basic concepts in the music. If theyre not fooling the audience, then they are fooling themselves.

Everybody can be accepted as long as they are willing to learn and emerse themselves in the culture and then its there choice to use it or not, and the art grows from something rather than growing from a couple of recordings and a copuple of maqams.

Branko - 5-30-2010 at 05:58 PM

Are you saying Edward's a lousy improviser?

Just before dropping into time-warp, I owe this to Edward:
I am not saying Edward's a lousy improviser! I am saying that humility is the virtue on eastern hemisphere.
I am not pissed off. I have gig in two weeks and my mind and time will be dedicated to "oriental jazz- no jazz at all- what ever we call it", supprised by choice of the genre by the chauvinistic zealot? :wavey:

fernandraynaud - 5-30-2010 at 07:10 PM

Can't help some generalizations in trying to understand. It's great if you have local access to all the roots. Go play, Branko, me go play too.

Aymara - 5-30-2010 at 11:45 PM

The oud can be a messenger between cultures that desperately need such a messenger.

I think, this is one of the most important statements in this whole off-topic discussion!

Edward Powell - 5-31-2010 at 12:48 AM

"But, in all fairness, not many Arabs are even scratching it, let alone deeply learning it. "

Theres plenty of great Arab oud players, what is this comment based on. recordings in the marketplace, or the limited Western view?
The West often forgets there are musicians in the Middle East that havent made it to light. So mass generalisations like that are only generalisations unless you have lived all over the Arab world.

People can imitate and regurgitate, fine. Learn A technique, fine. But what Im saying, the music has deeper groundings in other artforms aswell as in language, poetry etc. These must be learned, even as a respect to a tradition. Its not about regurgitating, its about learning and growing from it. Theres the saying you have to walk before you can run. Some players just want to start running and thats the problem. Im not saying a Western player may not be able to feel the oud, the oud is for everybody, but Im talking about Westerners that want to "grow" the music, when they themselves have problems with basic concepts in the music. If theyre not fooling the audience, then they are fooling themselves.

Everybody can be accepted as long as they are willing to learn and emerse themselves in the culture and then its there choice to use it or not, and the art grows from something rather than growing from a couple of recordings and a copuple of maqams.

Now we can also take these comments and turn them around and look at it from the other side - as has been my own personal experience.

I started to get deeply interested in JAZZ, and when I say JAZZ I am essentially refering to what I consider the "golden age" of jazz: BEBOP. The coltrane - parker era.

This was in Vancouver Canada around 1984... I used to go to the small jazz cafes and listen to the local players... Man these guys could play SO WELL, they could just transport you - send non-stop shivers up and down your spine - it was truly amazing. These dudes REALLY knew what they were doing when they played jazz... all of what they played was based on traditional jazz standards with chords and amazing chromatic-type solo lines. I will not say that they played in an old fashioned style - they stretched out unbelievably but always stayed within the traditional FRAMEWORK.

A couple of years later I went to India for the first time, and from there I completely lost track of jazz.

2 decades after that I found myself in Istanbul learning traditional Turkish music. . . . and to my surprise the majority of the "art musicians" were infatuated with JAZZ. Jazz is now the "cool thing" in Istanbul. [it is slowly also coming here to Cairo, but Cairo is about 10 or 15 years behind Istanbul].

The problem for me with jazz in Istanbul is that at a young age I experienced jazz in it's native territory that had developed to about as high as it ever could [i think that even now in Vancouver you will not find such jazz talent as what was around in the early 80's], so what I heard people calling "jazz" was pretty anti-climatic.

But that is not to say that they shouldn't do it or that they are doing a bad thing..... but many of these Turkish jazz players had no idea from where the jazz standards come from, and in fact only had a vague idea of what a jazz standard actually was... [certainly taking "short cuts" - simply learning some jazz theory] But they are enjoying the freedom to try out new sounds and styles, and Turkish jazz is now in it's infancy, and let's see where it will develop - - - I'm sure than in time it will evolve into a beautiful new musical form.

Now, I see a parallel with Westerners learning Oriental music. I will be the first to tell anyone that I can't play like Amjad ali Khan or Yurdal Tokcan.... but I am also sure that if I and others like me will stick with it sincerely for long enough, we will forge a new kind of music - - - - perhaps this new music will only develop into it's full maturity only 1, 2, or 3 generations after we are all dead...

Edward Powell - 5-31-2010 at 01:38 AM

Branko, taking 2 minutes of improv out of context I think we can make anybody sound boring. Are you saying Edward's a lousy improviser?

out of context? - boring? - on the list? ...these things are not to important. It is more a question of taste I think. Directly after this concert Sandor Szabo [one of Hungary's most gifted guitarists] approached me saying he was "deeply moved" by the performance, and he wished to collaborate - and we are still good friends today.

However, I am fully aware that my music is boring for the vast majority of people. That's fine. In fact how could it be otherwise....?

To me it seems to be a question of over-stimulation. For example a carrot, brown rice, and yellow peas with some salt is extremely boring for most people. But does that mean this food is bad quality. If you are used to spicy, oily, fried, rich food, or junk food, or coke, burgers, ice cream and all of that --- how are you going to find any pleasure eating a raw slice of cabbage?

Who is going to live longer and be more healthy? The person living on a diet of over-stimulating food, or a diet of natural food pratically straight out of the ground?

So, I have my own personal philosophy and my own life-style - and this is reflected in my music. Some people love it - others not.

By the way Branko, why don't you put up some clips of your playing -- I don't mean this spitefully, I honestly would like to hear you man.

JamesOud - 5-31-2010 at 04:25 AM

I just want to make it clear that Im not saying westerners should not play oud, Im saying if they expect to be in the more professional arena and be accepted by the Arabs, then they better study and learn all aspects of the music to earn their respect and status. A couple of months in Turkey or India or wherever, doesnt give a right for someone to adopt a culture and do it poorly. Its an understanding.
Whether you like it or not, playing music in the professional arena is a type of ambassador for that instrument and its culture and it better be done well...

Lazzaro - 5-31-2010 at 04:28 AM

what do you think about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auqaJmi_zYc
yes, I know, I am a little bit crazy
ciao to all :wavey:

Sazi - 5-31-2010 at 04:34 AM

:buttrock:

Edward Powell - 5-31-2010 at 04:41 AM

A couple of months in Turkey or India or wherever, doesnt give a right for someone to adopt a culture and do it poorly.

...and why not? Who is the one to decide who has the right to do this or that?

Had it ever occured to you that what you call "adopt a culture" might in fact be great display of friendship and respect? It has been said that imitation is the greatest compliment.

Maybe there is something more important going on here than "accuracy" and "perfectionism" in music.... maybe this humanity needs to start becoming more friendly with eachother so we can start to get beyond the mistrust and aggression between cultures.

Maybe thru learning music from another culture, and yes, even doing it professionally, we can start to bridge this dangerous gap.

If you set the standards so high, and frighten people away, then who is going to even try. Even as it is now there is only a tiny fragment with the courage to even try - - - so what do you want, to build even higher walls between cultures.

Why not congradulate and encourage those who have the balls to venture into the unknown of a new culture (HOWEVER SUPERFICIALLY), rather than beating them down for not coming up to unrealistic standard of perfectionism (rarely achieved by natives themselves)?

- - -

If your last comment was in any way directed at me.... please have a listen to my latest CD http://www.andreamurdock.com/ragmakam.zip ---if you don't like this, then fine, I rest my case.

I spent more than 5 years in India, learned Hindi, and studied with top sitarist Budhaditya Mukherjee for 3 years. I've been involved with middle-eastern music for 15 years, and am now in Egypt collaborating with one of Egypts finest and best known ney players Mohammed Antar - who claims that he prefers to play with me rather than Egyptians, not only because of my experience with Indian music, but simply because he says I have a better since of intonation than Egyptian players.

So please try to avoid the temptation to judge a book by it's cover

)

Lastly, it is very easy to judge. . . . so please James, qualify yourself by presenting to us a sample of your playing....

and we are still waiting for Branko's. . . . . .

Edward Powell - 5-31-2010 at 04:57 AM

what do you think about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auqaJmi_zYc
yes, I know, I am a little bit crazy
ciao to all :wavey:

not crazy at all mio fratello! I will put you on the top of "my secret list"

)

BRAVO!

JamesOud - 5-31-2010 at 05:22 AM

Its great if you can find a short cut. Take the place of hard working Arabs that have spent a lifetime. Novelty is great foot in. You cant have it all and you cant play everything. Ive never heard of Mohamed Antar, but I assume theres something in it for him, maybe be money or some travel.

As for the 'round midnight clip", a nice imitation of farid and then it went absolutely no where. Again this is what we have as an ambassador to the oud on an international stage.
Keep playing and keep practicing, but dont dismiss some of those around in the Arab world that are not lucky enough to have your platform.

5 years is nothing compared to a life time and if I remember correctly your first attempt to study oud in Cairo was last year. So now youre there collaborating with an Egyptian musician. Im an awful oud player, but am aware of whats out there. I just feel its more about Edward justifying to himself that he can do it. How bout continuing the focus in Indian music, not abdoning it after 5 years. Next year, you'll be playing Pipa in China in Tianemen square

Edward Powell - 5-31-2010 at 05:26 AM

Im an awful oud player

doesn't surprise me....

JamesOud - 5-31-2010 at 05:36 AM

You probably wouldnt be able to tell the difference. But I however, know not to try and take my inadequesy to the professional arena...

Good luck with it all...

jass - 5-31-2010 at 08:33 AM

Hey Guys,

Can we get back to talking about Oriental jazz, whatever that is

Nice clips guys!

Aymara - 5-31-2010 at 08:51 AM

yes, I know, I am a little bit crazy

Playing Thelonious Monk on oud isn't crazy, but great

... and for shure it's Jazz.

And when I hear the applause at the end of the video, it seems the Cairo audience shared my opinion.

fernandraynaud - 5-31-2010 at 01:01 PM

JamesOud, I feel sorry for your dog. You don't much like Edward's playing, you don't care for Lazzaro's, you don't even like your own. I can only imagine how you treat that poor animal ;-)

In considering how I would approach an outsider who wanted to play a music I know well, say "rock" guitar, I think I could tell him to go experience the culture, live and die in Los Angeles, listen to a lot of songs on the radio while stuck in traffic, suffer and extract the essence, and not take any shortcuts. Or i could assemble a play list of the most influential pieces, maybe even a set of links, and compile and explain the essentials -- saving him a few years of undirected study. Granted it would take more effort, so it would all depend on whether I wanted him to succeed, or not. There are a number of native players on this site, and elsewhere, who are doing exactly that, THANK YOU!

I know a young man who worked for Sony records, and whose difficult job was to help a Japanese singer learn Black Americanisms ;-) He did this conscientiously, with good results. When it came to a marketing try, singing rhythm and blues love songs for a Black American audience, the sad truth is that he would have been better appreciated with a paper bag on his head. He went back to Japan, where he continues to enjoy considerable success. As an instrumentalist, he would have had more luck. There are plenty of Asian pianists, violinists, etc, in many different styles. This observation probably applies everywhere: the higher the educational level of the audience, the more accepting of cross-cultural players.

When I was a kid in France, we all admired a famous American actor who sometimes came over to Europe and played an American heavy in French movies. I was amazed to find out that Eddie Constantine was completely unknown in America and that he lived in France. Some of the "oud masters" are a little like that. But, folks, no need to get excited, we need Eminem and Tatu too!

Aymara - 5-31-2010 at 01:16 PM

the higher the educational level of the audience, the more accepting of cross-cultural players.

It's more a matter of Social IQ, than education, isn't it?

But I think, we should end this off-topic debate, which leads to nothing than anger.

Please ... let's talk about Jazz again!

fernandraynaud - 5-31-2010 at 01:30 PM

What is being said here can't be ignored. There is very little anger, considering how difficult it is. I can completely appreciate all sides of these issues, and we all need to.

As to Round Midnight, I like Lazzaro's version better than Monk's. I'm still digesting it. I find the mix of taqsim and jazz idioms in this case absolutely fascinating. I don't see where else it's supposed to go ... It's clearly a work in progress. Keep exploring!

Sazi - 5-31-2010 at 01:35 PM

"Use what talent you possess - the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."

Henry Van Dyke

fernandraynaud - 5-31-2010 at 02:08 PM

The topic has intrinsic thorns, as jazz itself is one long history of "touchy appropriations". Miles' hubris could only be excused because of the times he lived from.

Sazi, right on!

Having grown up all over, I saw Jazz and blue jeans popping up as a sort of liberation symbol in the most bizarre permutations, behind the Iron Curtain, in Loussier's Bach adaptations, certainly far removed from its cotton fields roots. But one of the things that makes Jazz is that finger-snappin syncopation, that is the essence of its ironic stance, its distance. As soon as you put a driving 4/4 or 3/4 or 7/8 rhythm on, it's no longer jazz. That's why fusion is not jazz. Lazzaro manages something very curious and unique here.

Edward Powell - 5-31-2010 at 02:14 PM

But I think, we should end this off-topic debate

Nothing off topic has been said in my opinion... the topic is "Do you like Oriental Jazz?" ORIENTAL + JAZZ : what we are talking about here is a meeting of two cultures, and whenever two cultures meet there are always going to be uncomfortable things to work out. I personally have appreciated everyone's input so far, and have found value and validity in every single post. I hope nobody has felt personally attacked by anything I have said, and I also do not feel personally attacked. I think we all have personal gripes that we build up inside of us, and it is a healthy thing to be able to vent at bit and bounce our frustrations around a bit. I think we are all learning something.

Lazzaro - 5-31-2010 at 03:41 PM

Thanks you very much my friends for yours words, I don't know what kind of music I play, it is absolutely work in progress. I love Arabic music and I tray to learn it, is very difficult for me but give me a lot of good energy.
Massalama Ciao Ciao

Greg - 5-31-2010 at 03:48 PM