Mike's Oud Forums

Contest # 3 - Now what?

Dr. Oud - 6-6-2010 at 01:16 PM

This is the last, in this series anyway.
I need to hear what and why this time, so be specific.
Here's a hint: it's Greek!
As before, past winners, pros and smarty pants know-it-alls are ineligible.
You may consult to solve the riddle, but I will divide the prize among your team, so each will get a piece of the risha.

clamp.jpg - 68kB

Multi Kulti - 6-6-2010 at 01:38 PM

i dont think its a manol but an Ilias oud...if the question should be who the maker was :))


Nikos

fernandraynaud - 6-6-2010 at 11:56 PM

Richard, I cannot thank you enough. An envelope arrived today, and my wife brought me the contents: two Dr Oud business cards. I fortunately asked if anything else was in there, and she said no. It wasn't until later that she brung a thin strip of white polyethylene (?) with blue scrawls on it. Whether there's an "o" in there is not going to cause any debate. It's subtle. It's unique. Thank you! :cool:

p.s. It's the first thing I've won in ages. I only hope that in some sort of Lysenko coupling, winning the risha doesn't reduce my chances of more material winnings at the lottery.

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 09:33 AM

you re doing something to the ribs from inside...
Where is my risha?

bibo10 - 6-7-2010 at 12:09 PM

Since I already won the first contest, I can't participate here but i just wanna say that it looks scary!

Dr. Oud - 6-7-2010 at 01:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti  
i dont think its a manol but an Ilias oud...if the question should be who the maker was :))
Nikos


nope,
and btw, not Ilias

Dr. Oud - 6-7-2010 at 01:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  
you re doing something to the ribs from inside...
Where is my risha?

-nothing to do with ribs,
your risha is in your dreams....

mrkmni - 6-7-2010 at 05:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by bibo10  
....it looks scary!
I agree...:mad:

TruePharaoh21 - 6-7-2010 at 06:24 PM

Maybe a repair of a concavity that has occurred over the years, where rather than taking the face off, a metal bar has been placed under the face through the sound hole, and held in place by the clamps; in order to ensure that the bar stays in place, a towel has been wrapped around it so that the clamp has more surface area to lock on to...?

Or maybe it's just for photographic purposes. Hahahah.

TP21

fernandraynaud - 6-7-2010 at 08:13 PM

It's just some "enhanced dental techniques" to make the oud talk ...

DaveH - 6-7-2010 at 11:34 PM

Well, it looks like it's the same oud as in your first example.

So is this just the clamping of the horn rose from either side as the glue dries? But that sounds too simple.

So I'll have another go as you haven't expressly forbidden multiple guesses (or does that come under the purview of the "smartypants" rule?).

Is it to do with the brace repair? Are you clamping a temporary bar across the braces to maintain outward pressure while the glue between the repaired brace and the face sets?

Dr. Oud - 6-8-2010 at 09:32 AM

it is the same oud....
it's not a dental implant....
there is a wet sock, but not to soften glue...
not brace repair....
nobody got it yet.
keep trying....

fernandraynaud - 6-8-2010 at 11:54 AM

Ineligible guess: Humidifier?

Btw as I sit in very humid surroundings my oud is swelling and trying to decide if it likes it. The pegs feel very different. I can see why they use 15:1 taper on softer wood and 30:1 only on very dense woods. If 30:1 pegs swell, you might never loosen them until the monsoon season is over.


Dr. Oud - 6-8-2010 at 12:22 PM

no comment on ineligible guesses

Ararat66 - 6-8-2010 at 03:08 PM

OK a shot in the dark

I think the damp sock is to help restore the curved wave that is built into the soundboards of some Greek/Armenian ouds particularly Karibyans (mine included) when looking across the top from the side - for some reason the integrity of that curve was lost (by a broken brace or just age and string tension causing the top to sink) and the top has been humidified to allow the wood to regain some flexibility. My guess is that a brace might have been replaced prior to this to restore this top surface curve and this clamp holds the top in position whilst the top softens very slightly before the new shape 'sets'.

Leon:D

TruePharaoh21 - 6-8-2010 at 03:20 PM

Eligible guess = humidifier?

Dr. Oud - 6-8-2010 at 04:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ararat66  
OK a shot in the dark...blah, blah, blah... My guess is that a brace might have been replaced prior to this to restore this top surface curve and this clamp holds the top in position whilst the top softens very slightly before the new shape 'sets'.

Leon:D

nope. you know a shot in the dark rarely hits the right target.

nor is it a humidifier eligible or not.

btw; the face curve is created by cutting the top edge of the bowel into a concave plane, or the shaping the top edge of the braces. This shape prevents the face from twisting around the tone brace (forward of the bridge) which can result in the face rising up in a hump below the shams and interfering with the risha. The face is not "soft" nor does it "set" into a shape. The face follows the plane defined by the braces and/or the top edge of the bowel.

keep trying........

mrkmni - 6-8-2010 at 05:01 PM

To hold the transverse pieces of wood in their places..

corridoio - 6-9-2010 at 03:38 AM

maybe the solution hides beyond what's in discussion in this other topic:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10786#pid73...

so maybe the sock is wet with a solution to kill with evaporation the bacters coming from the use in the past of old hide glue that now is smelling bad

Dr. Oud - 6-9-2010 at 02:19 PM

nope, nobody has got it yet...

FastForward - 6-9-2010 at 02:24 PM

Another shot in the dark.

To clean the inside from glue. Your hand is too big to fit in the soundhole, so you used a clamp with bar at the end and a wet towel.


Dr. Oud - 6-10-2010 at 02:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FastForward  
Another shot in the dark.

To clean the inside from glue. Your hand is too big to fit in the soundhole, so you used a clamp with bar at the end and a wet towel.


not glue cleanup, and I can get my hand and arm up to my elbow into the hole if I need to, no worries....
not yet...

mrkmni - 6-10-2010 at 05:43 PM

It is so hard. Give one Risah to all participants...

Dr. Oud - 6-11-2010 at 09:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  
It is so hard. Give one Risah to all participants...

now what kind of contest would that be?

Dr. Oud - 6-11-2010 at 09:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oudistcamp  
The wet sock is keeping the support beam (under it) moist. The beam is used to level the split face while gluing. The moisture prevents the glue from gluing the face to the support beam if there is any excess glue.

Well at least you got the wet sock part. Good enough for an atta boy!
There is no beam under it, and the face is not split, however, so the riddle is not yet solved.
keep trying....

Ilias

spyrosc - 6-11-2010 at 01:39 PM

Hey Doc, why did you say it's not Ilias ? Ilias and Elias is the same name in Greek

Spyros C.

mrkmni - 6-11-2010 at 02:20 PM

The wet sock is to clean the wood dust from the inside...

rojaros - 6-14-2010 at 09:26 PM

I don't know the answer, but judging from what I can see on the picture the details look exactly like my Copcuoglu oud ... so are you secretly repairing my Copcouoglu? Is any problem with it I didn't know? Thanks, in that case.;)

BTW as Copcuoglu was said to having copied Manol I suspect it is a Monol oud. The tools look as if you were fixing some internal structure around the sound hole itself (I don't know the technical terms anyway).

Best wishes
Robert

Dr. Oud - 6-15-2010 at 06:58 AM

It is not a Cocuoglu, but made by Ilias. It does have the proportions of a Manol, and I installed the Manol brace design.

this riddle is not yet solved.....

Multi Kulti - 6-15-2010 at 07:26 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti  
i dont think its a manol but an Ilias oud...if the question should be who the maker was :))
Nikos


nope,
and btw, not Ilias


Not Ilias or indeed Ilias? I was pretty sure about that...but if you say no...
By the way nice oud...are we allowed to learn more about it? Date of birth etc etc?

Nikos

Dr. Oud - 6-15-2010 at 01:38 PM

I was mistaken about the owner, it IS indeed by Ilias, according to the owner. The label is in Turkish and Greek, neither of which I can decife, my bad. It was made in 1922.
I'm close to declaring myself the winner on this one....

talmid - 6-15-2010 at 08:31 PM

heres a shot.

you're using the clamp and wet sock in order to stretch the sound hole, to stick a rosette inside of it, so you dont need to cut it to get inside the oud.


Dr. Oud - 6-16-2010 at 08:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by talmid  
heres a shot.

you're using the clamp and wet sock in order to stretch the sound hole, to stick a rosette inside of it, so you dont need to cut it to get inside the oud.


interesting, I didn't know that wood would stretch....
but no, that's not it.....

Estebanana _Stephen Faulk - 6-16-2010 at 01:37 PM

Very clever Dr. Oud. I figured it out, but I won't say anything.

Tom Chandler told me there were mysteries over here and I can't resist this kind of riddle. So I registered.

FastForward - 6-16-2010 at 03:28 PM

Going back to what you were doing before to this oud. You had a broken rosette, and you mentioned that the you didn't pull the pieces out to glue them together. I am guessing, the clamp is holding the two pieces wood as shown in the picture, these two pieces hold the two pieces of the rosette. The wet sock is to prevent the glue from drying thereby having a rosette stuck to the two pieces of wood.

This is purely imaginary but kind of makes sense at 4:30 in the afternoon.

Dr. Oud - 6-16-2010 at 03:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FastForward  
Going back to what you were doing before to this oud. You had a broken rosette, and you mentioned that the you didn't pull the pieces out to glue them together. I am guessing, the clamp is holding the two pieces wood as shown in the picture, these two pieces hold the two pieces of the rosette. The wet sock is to prevent the glue from drying thereby having a rosette stuck to the two pieces of wood....

no, not yet....

Dr. Oud - 6-16-2010 at 04:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Estebanana _Stephen Faulk  
Very clever Dr. Oud. I figured it out, but I won't say anything.

Tom Chandler told me there were mysteries over here and I can't resist this kind of riddle. So I registered.
Thanks for your discretion, I visited your site and admired your work. You are hereby disqualified from entering these contests on 2 grounds:
1. professional luthier (smarty-pants know it all)
2. guitarists don't need a mizrab.
I remember Keni Parker, long ago & far away in my former life as a flamenco wanna be...

Estebanana _Stephen Faulk - 6-16-2010 at 11:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud  
Quote: Originally posted by Estebanana _Stephen Faulk  

2. guitarists don't need a mizrab.
I remember Keni Parker, long ago & far away in my former life as a flamenco wanna be...


Thank you Dr. Richard, I admire your work very much. At the moment I'm warming up to trying the oud myself so that makes me a wanna be oudi.


fernandraynaud - 6-17-2010 at 03:04 PM

Jump in!

Estebanana _Stephen Faulk - 6-18-2010 at 10:40 AM

I have a mizrab, but I'm still disqualified.

However I do use the mizrab for repair work. It makes a perfect gesso application knife when I have to do a gesso fill. I keep it clean so when the day comes I get or make an oud I'll have my plectrum ready!

Keep guessing !

Dr. Oud - 6-19-2010 at 08:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by DaveH  
Well, it looks like it's the same oud as in your first example.

So is this just the clamping of the horn rose from either side as the glue dries? But that sounds too simple.

So I'll have another go as you haven't expressly forbidden multiple guesses (or does that come under the purview of the "smartypants" rule?). ...

It is simple, but not to do with gluing the rose.
Multiple guesses are allowed.
"smartypants" are professional luthiers including lute, violin and guitar builders and repair technicians. Professional means you get paid for it.

Dr. Oud - 6-19-2010 at 07:25 PM

All right, I'm declaring "no winner" for this contest.
The rose is horn and was warped when it was glued back together in contest #1. The sock was dampened with hot water to soften the horn and the clamp squeezed it flat between the blocks.
Better luck next time, boys....
was that your guess Stephen?

Estebanana _Stephen Faulk - 6-20-2010 at 11:50 AM

When I saw the two thick pieces of wood I thought it's a press, so yes I did have the idea you were gently massaging the rose back into a flat plane.

One of the things that wood and several other materials will do, for the non instrument fixers benefit, is stay put in a position they are left to dry in. When we bend ribs for example, through heat and moisture the wood gets to a certain point where it becomes "plastic" in its cell walls. You can then bend it, and if you leave it to cool or dry in that position, at a cellular level it will stay trained in that position.

So my question to you Dr. Oud is, did you use a little heat from am iron to help the horn material be more maleable or did you press it gradually with the hot wet sock and press boards?


Dr. Oud - 6-20-2010 at 02:35 PM

I just wrapped the damp sock around the rose and clamped it in 2 stages. It only took a minute for the horn to soften and apply full pressure. I let it dry and cool for 2 days before removing the clamp and found it was indeed flat enough to glue to the face.
As for bending, heat is always applied, but I only apply moisture on the really dense hardwoods like rosewood and other dalbergia woods. Any wood from maple down to the softer nut woods and mahoganies can be bent with heat only. There's enough moisture in the atmosphere (usually at least 10%) to allow the cellular walls to release to the plastic state.
heres an interesting dwood info site:
http://www.wood-database.com