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Trying PVF strings. Tensions & gauges. PVF Fishline? Who's using which?

fernandraynaud - 7-9-2010 at 03:47 AM

PVF. Have you tried fluorocarbon strings?

I just got Musicaravan's PVF treble set. From calculations I expected the 0.54 mm thick cc course to give me a quite stiff 4.4 Kg, and sure enough, I got it. That's too much. They sound OK, but are hard on the fingers and feel really tight. The gg course is OK, 0.65 mm thick, around 3.5 Kg.

These strings seem to be "stretching out" MUCH faster than nylon. I expect them to be usable the very next day.

The average oud's large difference in timbre between the wound DD 3rd course and the plain nylon gg 2nd course has always bothered me. With a horn risha, these PVF strings sound just brighter enough to blend the treble courses with the wound basses much better. I expected them to be brighter yet, and it's nice that it's a moderate and not an extreme change. We aren't exactly "pushing" them at oud tensions.

With a black Acetal (Delrin) risha, the sound is different, brighter, more metallic, especially with higher tension. If you like an old fashioned timbre, when using PVF, hard plastic is not advised, a softer risha is better.

I think I'm sold. If they don't "delaminate". Next I'm getting some polyfilament PVF fishline in 25 meter reels. These use an inner and outer resin layer, a little like a wound string, I can't imagine them falling apart.

I think that more practical gauges than the Musicaravan gauges I received are:

For the top course tuned cc: 0.47 mm (0.018") PVF giving (respectively) 3.3, 3.1 and 2.9 Kg on 615, 600 and 585 mm scale ouds. And

For the second course tuned gg: 0.62 mm (0.024") PVF giving 3.2, 3.1 and 2.9 kg on 615, 600 and 585 scale ouds.

For an ff "course 0", the 0.37 mm (0.015") PVF is usable, giving 3.6, 3.5 and 3.3 kg on 615, 600 and 585 mm ouds.

For Turkish tuning on a 585 mm scale, I calculate 3.7 Kg for the dd top course using the above 0.47mm PVF, and 3.7 kg for the second aa course using the 0.62 mm PVF. To get down to 2.9 - 3.1 Kg in Turkish tuning on a 585 mm scale, you can use 0.41 mm and 0.57 mm PVF instead.

Who is using various PVF mono and polyfilament fish lines at this time on their ouds?

fernandraynaud - 7-9-2010 at 01:11 PM

I just found a string vendor who sells high quality lute strings, silver-plated copper on nylon filament basses, in spools. One interesting claim is that they wind them under high tension, so the strings don't need to stretch. This may (or may not) turn out to be very cost-effective. He will be sending me samples for an oud set with PVF trebles to my spec, and I will report.

freya - 7-10-2010 at 02:56 AM

Been using Seaguar Premier for several years now and would never switch back to nylon:

Quicker settle
Non-hydroscopic
Negligible temperature coefficient
Resists wear (good for tarpon and snook - catch and release of course)
Subjectively lively tone
Good intonation (I've had maybe one non-uniform string out of the 20 or 30 pairs I've used)
Can be bought in bulk

I use 0.52mm and 0.66mm for the C and G respectively in Arabic tuning (tension looked reasonable in Arto's calculator). In any case you can read what one classical player concluded at:

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9942&pa...

Harry

fernandraynaud - 7-10-2010 at 11:11 AM

I am aware of that quote. Good to hear your experience! I have 0.546 mm on my cc that came from Musicaravan. I used PVF's published 1800 kg/cubic meter for density, and in string calculator got 4.4 kg. And indeed they feel very stiff. If you have Seaguar Premier Leader in 0.52mm, the tension should be 4 kg at 615 mm, 3.8 kg at 600 mm and 3.6 kg at 585 mm, OR that material must not weigh 1800 kg/cubic meter. What scale length do you have? How does that cc course feel in tension compared to what nylon or wound strings? Maybe the two resin inner-outer construction ends up being lighter? Or do you personally like stiff trebles? What do you think is going on here?

rojaros - 7-12-2010 at 12:47 PM

I'm using Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader on guitar and would not go back to any other brand of string whatsoever for trebles.

I tried 0.41 on my oud for f', but it's too tight.

But soundwise I think that is the best material that can be bought at the moment. Melton Tackle in Annaheim CA is a good source, they seem to have all gauges that are available. (Unfortunately several intermediate gauges vanished from the market).

best wishes
Robert

fernandraynaud - 7-12-2010 at 08:28 PM

Yes, it makes sense, for ff a 0.41mm PVF string would give you 4.04, 4.25 and 4.47 Kg at 585, 600 and 615 mm scale length.

They sell a 0.37mm Premier Leader, that would work better for ff, giving 3.3, 3.5, 3.6 Kg on 585, 600 and 615 mm scales.

I'm still curious about Freya/Harry's use of 0.52 mm on the cc course, for 0.52mm, the tension works out to be 4 kg at 615 mm, 3.8 kg at 600 mm and 3.6 kg at 585 mm, so unless he has a short scale, I would think he'd find it a bit tight.

For instance, the 4.4 kg I get on my 615 mm oud's cc course (using Musicaravan's 0.54mm) is tolerable but at the top end of tolerable.

Thomastik KR116

fernandraynaud - 7-12-2010 at 09:26 PM

The most "exotic" strings I've ever had. These are installed on a Spanish guitar at the moment, but I tried a couple on a Sukar 615 mm scale oud. The sound was so different that I decided against getting two sets and stringing an oud with them, at the moment, but if someone is looking for a new sound, these are it. One of these days, I'll give it a try.

The trebles are flatwound nylon on a "rope" core, the basses are flatwound silvered copper on rope. They look and feel Rolls Royce. For instance the 0.039" bass string is so flexible, it's like spaghetti al dente. The tensions work out to 2.8 to 3.4 kg, with the 0.016" c course a bit over 4 kg, lighter than 0.54" PVF.

It's a bright sound, on a Spanish guitar. The flatwound nylons sound a lot like PVF, but with amazing sustain. So smooth! You can slide more silently on the basses than on normal oud strings. There is no change in timbre at the Bass-Treble break. The strings don't even stretch a hair after you put them on; they stay in tune right away! Amazing quality and attention to detail all around.

On the oud, the basses I tried gave a zingier sound than the typical oud strings. I never had a course doubled, it might sound divine, or it might just sound odd.

In any case, there is no danger, even the tightest 4.1Kg for the cc on a long scale is within reason. The ball ends can be worked into the loop, or cut off, but careful, the bass strings are not overly long.

These sets sell for $18 at the moment from JustStrings.com, so two sets would add up into the "lute strings" price tag, not cheap, but not impossible.

freya - 7-13-2010 at 05:23 AM

It's difficult to know what the exact molecular weight of a given string is, especially if it's co-extruded the way the Seguars are (I think), so the string calculator may be approximate. Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the diameter of the string can affect the perceived tension - the PVFs are considerably thinner and that may come into play. In any case, I don't perceive much difference between the Seguars at the diameter noted, the MusicCaravans that I was using before but found too expensive and the nylons that come with the Pyramid Oranges that I usually string up before putting the PVFs on just to check playability.

As far as gauge availability goes, some serious fishing friends of mine use other brands (more expensive) of Japanese PVF leader (for fishing not playing that is). If it turns out that specific gauges of Seguar Premier become hard to get, I may try experimenting with some other brands but right now I've got lots of reels of lots of gauges...

Harry

fernandraynaud - 7-13-2010 at 12:50 PM

It's not surprising the Seaguar 0.52 tuned cc feels like Musicaravan's 0.545, we don't need to invoke imprecision. Since 0.545 feels tight to me, and that matches the calculated 4.4 kg, I'm going to try the 0.47mm. Thanks, Harry!

Aymara - 7-14-2010 at 08:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

The most "exotic" strings I've ever had.

They remind me of Elixir Nanoweb strings for guitar and bass, which have a rubber like coating.

Let us know, if you find good flatwound strings for the oud ... I would be highly interested.

fernandraynaud - 7-14-2010 at 10:06 AM

Chris, if you can get two KR116 sets at a decent price, that will work. Cheaper than some custom sets you were looking at.

On your 585 mm oud if tuned Arabic the tensions will be:
c 3.83kg, g 3.36kg, d 2.88kg, a 2.94kg, f 3.36kg, c 3.38kg.

Not all that different from your D'Addario J95 set, but probably more even, and a hair lighter. The only issue is if you will like the tone, which is brighter and "richer" than typical oud strings. But they are flat wound, feel wonderful, like one if those 3D woven gold chains that drape around your fingers, and are a pleasure even to handle. There is no sudden change in tone on any course, and no stretching out of tune. You and I both know nobody makes strings like Thomastik. It's just a question of whether you or I will try them on the oud first.

Aymara - 7-14-2010 at 10:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Cheaper than some custom sets you were looking at.

The price would be nearly the same.

Quote:

You and I both know nobody makes strings like Thomastik.

Yep ... Thomastik is also the perfect choice for Godin's Glissentar, but here the Classic S set is needed twice. It's still guitar tuning, but they are flatwound and as I read in a guitar forum they even sound better than Godin's own set.

The Godin A11 with flatwound strings in oud tuning would be perfect ... a real competitor to the oud itself.

BTW ... my instrument dealer told me, that the Glissentar is a top seller amongst young Turkish people in my region. Maybe I should import high quality Turkish ouds to Germany

fernandraynaud - 7-14-2010 at 03:10 PM

Glissentar, schmissentar! Try a double Classic S (KR116) set on your 585 mm oud! The tensions work out great for standard Arabic tuning. You can get them cheaper in Germany than I can in the US.

When I say they are brighter than normal oud strings, that's not a very good description. The bass string sounds brighter, richer, but the trebles sound velvety, yet with a long sustain, but not like Western guitar strings. They might sound fantastic on the oud, or weird, hard to know without trying them.

The tensions that Thomastik lists for the KR116 set on a 650 mm scale guitar with guitar tuning are about double, around 6-7 Kg.

Aymara - 7-15-2010 at 09:56 AM

Oops, didn't notice, that Classic S = KR116.

fernandraynaud - 7-15-2010 at 02:32 PM

Oh, BTW, here is a simple way to estimate what a given string, taken from a guitar, will feel like on the oud.

The scale of a standard guitar is 650 mm. The first fret is around 615 mm. The second fret is around 581 mm. If you put a capo (or just fingers) at the first fret, and tune the guitar down to sound c g d a f c, you will feel what the tensions will be on a 615 mm scale oud tuned Arabic (they will be about half). This also gives you some idea of what these strings will sound like at reduced tension.

To simulate a short scale oud place the capo at the second fret and tune Turkish or Arabic, depending on how you will tune the oud.

Here we see how the Turkish tuning on a short scale is indeed a bit tighter than a long scale tuned Arabic, the difference between e.g. the top string being left as is (and sounding C# one fret up), vs. pulling it up to Turkish D, right?

The surprising things is that doubling up classical guitar sets works out quite well, without even having to pick and choose singles! A rough guideline is that strings that don't exceed around 7 kg tension on the guitar can be used on the oud, and of course steel strings with greater tension cannot.

There are even classical guitar sets with a wound string for the third course. The Thomastik KR116 set uses hybrid flatwounds throughout and there is no simple break between the basses and trebles.

My interest in this matter is that once we know this, we have a wider range of strings and timbres to choose from, and people who can't get oud sets locally, or who break a string while on tour in Patagonia, are not "dead in the water".

Aymara - 7-16-2010 at 07:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

My interest in this matter is that once we know this, we have a wider range of strings and timbres to choose from, and people who can't get oud sets locally, or who break a string while on tour in Patagonia, are not "dead in the water".

Yes, that's definitely worth it, especially the later.

fernandraynaud - 7-17-2010 at 02:17 PM

I didn't expect this, but the PVF I got from Musicaravan is the stretchiest material ever. Since PVF doesn't absorb water like Nylon, I was rather counting on the opposite. It's a real nuisance; over a week and it's still stretching, like 50-75 cents overnight. Yes, I did stretch them side to side. Nylons would have settled down by now. Meanwhile all the strings in the KR116 set on the Spanish guitar are rock stable.

How does the Seaguar Premium Leader behave in that respect?

Seaguar Premier Leader

fernandraynaud - 7-27-2010 at 11:32 PM

ok. The Seaguar Premier Leader arrived Fedex Ground.

The gauges are correct and the tensions feel like what I had calculated, which is to say a nice even 3.0-3.3 Kg on the cc and gg courses, depending on scale, good match for the Daniel Mari basses. I installed them on a 615 mm scale oud. They sound bright and live. Big range of timbres with different rishas and pluck points. Can't tell if they are the same material as what Musicaravan offers.

I have not tried the ff "mumtaz" course yet, but I rather expect them to work. We want a slightly higher tension on the ff strings, and the 0.37 mm gauge does that. I think Kuerschner has trouble getting 0.37 mm PVF as he only offers Nylon for the ff course, Musicaravan too.

If you want to calculate tensions in Arto's String Calculator, the density of this stuff is around 1800 Kg/ cubic meter.

Seaguar Fluoro Premier Leader

The gauges (with tensions on 615, 600 and 585 mm scale) are:

18 lb 0.015" 0.37 mm for course 0 (ff) (3.6, 3.5 and 3.3 kg)
28 lb 0.018" 0.47 mm for course 1 (cc) (3.3, 3.1 and 3.0 Kg)
45 lb 0.024" 0.62 mm for course 2 (gg) (3.2, 3.1 and 2.9 kg)

Prices vary, but my total order with shipping and tax for the 3 25 yard rolls as above was under $50. At normal prices the standard cc and gg treble courses work out to about $3.60 for the 2 pairs in 40" length, or $4.70 for 3 treble pairs for ff tuning.

I add $8.00 for a set of Daniel Mari basses (and set aside the nylon trebles). Mari Arabic and Turkish sets are identical. The gauges are .022p .028p .024w .030w .035w 041w. Their Nylon ff course is .020p and costs $0.75.

The complete sets then come to:

Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles $7.99
Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles and Nylon ff course $8.74
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles $11.59
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and Nylon ff course $12.24
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and PVF ff course $12.69

$11.59 for a PVF set is not bad, beats 30 Euros

.

The Melton part numbers are:
838300 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-18FP25
838302 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-28FP25
838304 SEAGUAR FLURO PREMIER-45FP25

This looks like very solid stuff, I don't expect "delamination" or other problems. I'll post after I've played them a while.

A useful trick for PVF is to rub the last 2 inches of both ends on violin bow rosin before stringing. PVF is very slippery, and this stops slippage on both the bridge loops and the tuning pin, more effective than melting the tips, which hardly does anything.

maker - 7-29-2010 at 05:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

ok. The Seaguar Premier Leader arrived Fedex Ground.

The gauges are correct and the tensions feel like what I had calculated, which is to say a nice even 3.0-3.3 Kg on the cc and gg courses, depending on scale, good match for the Daniel Mari basses. I installed them on a 615 mm scale oud. They sound bright and live. Big range of timbres with different rishas and pluck points. Can't tell if they are the same material as what Musicaravan offers.

I have not tried the ff "mumtaz" course yet, but I rather expect them to work. We want a slightly higher tension on the ff strings, and the 0.37 mm gauge does that. I think Kuerschner has trouble getting 0.37 mm PVF as he only offers Nylon for the ff course, Musicaravan too.

If you want to calculate tensions in Arto's String Calculator, the density of this stuff is around 1800 Kg/ cubic meter.

Seaguar Fluoro Premier Leader

The gauges (with tensions on 615, 600 and 585 mm scale) are:

18 lb 0.015" 0.37 mm for course 0 (ff) (3.6, 3.5 and 3.3 kg)
28 lb 0.018" 0.47 mm for course 1 (cc) (3.3, 3.1 and 3.0 Kg)
45 lb 0.024" 0.62 mm for course 2 (gg) (3.2, 3.1 and 2.9 kg)

Prices vary, but my total order with shipping and tax for the 3 25 yard rolls as above was under $50. At normal prices the standard cc and gg treble courses work out to about $3.60 for the 2 pairs in 40" length, or $4.70 for 3 treble pairs for ff tuning.

I add $8.00 for a set of Daniel Mari basses (and set aside the nylon trebles). Mari Arabic and Turkish sets are identical. The gauges are .022p .028p .024w .030w .035w 041w. Their Nylon ff course is .020p and costs $0.75.

The complete sets then come to:

Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles $7.99
Mari Arabic Long set with Nylon trebles and Nylon ff course $8.74
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles $11.59
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and Nylon ff course $12.24
Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and PVF ff course $12.69

$11.59 for a PVF set is not bad, beats 30 Euros

Where can I buy these strings Mari Arabic Long set with PVF Trebles and PVF ff course

fernandraynaud - 7-30-2010 at 05:14 PM

You cannot buy sets with PVF (yet). I'm working on it

For now have to add the PVF yourself. I was showing what such sets might cost if you buy Seaguar Premier in 25 meter rolls. But you can buy the base Mari set with nylon trebles and nylon ff course at:

http://www.ostriemusicsupplies.com/marioud-ar.htm

Incidentally, the Seaguar strings are holding up very well. They are still stretching, 20 cents or so overnight, so not too bad. They sound and feel great.

maker - 7-30-2010 at 06:07 PM

from ware you got this string PVF

fernandraynaud - 7-31-2010 at 03:59 AM

It is called Seaguar Premier Leader and is sold by fisherman supply stores like Melton's tackle in Anaheim California. They still have the right gauges on sale!

http://www.meltontackle.com/products/seaguar-fluoro-premier-fluoroc...

fernandraynaud - 8-3-2010 at 06:56 AM

It's been a week with the PVF trebles. They are still settling a bit overnight, like 5-10 cents, but with less reaction to humidity, NET they drift less than nylons. No sign of "delamination".

I understand that on some ouds some players may find them too bright. That has been reported on classical guitar as well: some people just prefer the more muted nylon. Nylon sounds dead to me, but PVF can be "zingy". This is pretty subjective stuff, on different days the same oud & material sounds surprisingly different. I too have noticed this "magic".

A heavier gauge than 0.47 mm for the cc course seems to sounds less metallic. But the 0.546 that Musicaravan provides has a tension over 4 kg. The logical gauge to try if 0.47 mm seems too light or too bright would be the 0.52 mm, the 0.020" 35 lb Seaguar Premier 35FP25. It is what Freya is using.

There's a strange thing going on with Seaguar Premier Leader gauges, where they are changing the "pound test" ratings, making it hard to know what is what. It might also be that the 0.52mm gauge will no longer be available. But nobody said the "Premier Leader" is the only usable PVF for oud strings, there are other Seaguar leaders, some also made with "double extrusion", and cheaper. And we don't even know if the "double extrusion" is desirable. I'm supposed to talk to the chemical engineer tomorrow, and will post the findings.

I wonder if using nylon for one string and PVF for the other is a useful option.

There is a product called Cork Life from Birkenstock, used for preserving cork sandal inner soles.

http://www.birkenstockexpress.com/Products/Accessories/hero.cfm/cat...

This latex-containing stuff has been mentioned as a way to tone down an overly bright wound string on harpsichords. A one inch length of the sounding string at the bridge end is painted with Cork Life and left to dry for 20 minutes. It makes sense that a latex like this could mute some upper harmonics on any string. Perhaps a contact cement would do the same?

Aymara - 8-3-2010 at 08:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

This latex-containing stuff has been mentioned as a way to tone down an overly bright wound string on harpsichords.

Isn't it similar to the coated guitar and bass strings, e.g. from Elixir or Thomastik?

fernandraynaud - 8-3-2010 at 03:57 PM

No, the idea with the latex is to tune/optimize the timbre, say if you want just a tiny bit more muted. A short length of the string is treated to dampen it lightly. Ideally this would be reversible. I have never tried it yet. Maybe it only works on wound strings?

The coated strings, like Elixirs, are designed to extend the useful life of bright strings like wound bronze, by shielding the entire string from finger oils and debris.

Except on very zingy days, when even nylons sound bright, I like the PVF strings just the way they are. On a 615 mm oud, using Seaguar Premier, the gg course is perfect at 0.62 mm, it would also work on shorter scale, either Arabic or Turkish tuned. For the cc course the 0.47 mm is a hair light, and this translates to "maybe a bit metallic". Especially on a shorter scale, I'd go with a 0.52 mm for the cc without question.

The ideal PVF material and gauge is open to experiment. These are not prohibitively expensive, $8-$25 for 25 meters, more people should experiment, we can surely find an inexpensive ideal material in bulk. There are even 100 meter rolls, once you're sure, and you have a big family, too many ouds, and lots of friends

In the Seaguar leader alone, there are 3 different types, that differ in details of extrusion and resins used. It happens that 0.52 will no longer be available in Premier, but the Blue is very similar, also 2 resin, and the Red is cheaper, single resin. I hope to know more soon. I found a fishing shop (Bay Tackle) where they KNOW people use this stuff on ouds! Another research project, Sigh!

Aymara - 8-4-2010 at 10:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

The coated strings, like Elixirs, are designed to extend the useful life of bright strings like wound bronze, by shielding the entire string from finger oils and debris.

Yes, I know, but I thought, the coating might be of similar material as the latex you found.

Quote:

There are even 100 meter rolls, once you're sure, and you have a big family, too many ouds, and lots of friends

... or want to open up a shop for PVF strings

fernandraynaud - 8-7-2010 at 06:23 PM

OK, I talked to the engineer at Seaguar. Here's the scoop.

Seaguar makes their own resins. The "fishing leader" that they make is probably (?) the best made, most consistent, Fluorocarbon material on the market. "Leader", as opposed to "line", is supposed to best handle impact when a fish bites, so it's better made than line. Seaguar know people use it for musical instruments. It's also the brand I've seen most mentioned by guitarists.

They used to sell one type of leader. You can still find it as "Seaguar Leader". Now they make three types, but not all gauges are available in all types.

The Red Label is a plain PVF monofilament. It is the cheapest. Its surface is the hardest and most slippery of the three.

The Blue Label Leader is what used to be sold as Seaguar Leader. It is made by a two layer extrusion process, so the inner material is harder than the outer layer, it's what provides the tensile strength. The outer layer is softer, designed to grip better in knots. It likely imparts a softer sound to the string. Blue Label is medium priced; a 0.52 mm retails "on the street" for $20 in 25 meter rolls, and it can be purchased cheaper.

The Premier Leader is the newest and most expensive. The outer resin is softer than the Blue Label outer layer, providing the best knot grip, and maybe the most gentle sound.

Strings of PVF have a louder and brighter timbre than nylon. The brightness increases as the thickness decreases, so it's a fine balance between timbre and tension. I tried a 0.47 mm Premier for the cc course. The tension is around 3.3 kg on a 615 mm scale, but it's a little bright, and maybe a bit too slack for fast tremolo.

The best choice for the cc course is 0.52 mm, it seems everyone agrees. The 0.52 mm in Premier is discontinued, but it is available in Blue Label. Tension is a little high, 4.0 kg on a 615 mm scale, but it sounds and plays better than 0.47mm.

The 0.62 mm for the gg course is available in Premier and Blue Label. I have the Premier. It's perfect in timbre and tension (3.2 kg at 615 mm), but I imagine the Blue Label isn't very different sonically. I can't hear a difference.

A major beauty of PVF is that the transition between the wound DD and the plain gg strings is almost imperceptible.

There is a 0.37 mm Premier I purchased for ff tuning, the tension looks right, but I haven't tried it yet. Based on my experience with thin cc material, it might be a bit bright. If someone who is experienced with PVF wants to try it, I'll send the first person to e-mail me a pair of strings.

PVF is more slippery than nylon. Rubbing the last few inches at both ends on a violin rosin cake is a good way to prevent slipping at the bridge and on the pegs.

An interesting "rule of thumb" from the Crane.jp web site:
If you want to use a nylon string instead of fluorocarbon, multiply the thickness by a factor of 1.3.
If you want to use fluorocarbon string instead of nylon, multiply the thickness by a factor of 0.77.
They also note that on the thinnest strings, timbre can be overly bright.

I've been looking for info on different brands of Fluorocarbon lines. A shop near Berkeley that sells to musicians said Blackwater leader is very popular.

Edward Powell - 12-4-2010 at 11:03 AM

I didn't yet read thru all these posts, but I will - - - but can I just ask for a short cut:

You mean it is possible just to order some Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader from some fishing supply place -
0.52 CC
0.66 GG

....and that's that ??? they will work fine?

I am in Czech now, can anyone suggest a good supplier ?? How much can this cost for two 25 meter coils?

THANKS!

Edward Powell - 5-23-2011 at 03:47 AM

Hi Friends...

I have just finished building a new ragmakamtar and I really want to get the nylon strings sounding great, but I am realizing that I will need to experiment with plenty of string types and guages.

I think that PVF will sound the best, but because this is a very unusual original instrument it is not clear which guages will sound the best...

...therefore ideally I would like to be able to try out a whole range of guages before finally ordering full size coils of these strings.

I know that many of you have been ordering and using Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader... and from reading various threads, can see that some of you prefer different thicknesses...

What I would like to ask is if some of you who have some of this Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader - if you would be willing to send to me 2 meter samples of whatever guages you might have. I am very happy to pay you for the strings and postage - if you have PAYPAL I can pay immediately.

My hope is to be able to quickly and affordably acquire a very wide range of PVF guage samples in order to test all of them and find the best for my new instrument.

Thanks so much!
Edward

Edward Powell - 5-24-2011 at 05:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

The most "exotic" strings I've ever had. These are installed on a Spanish guitar at the moment, but I tried a couple on a Sukar 615 mm scale oud. The sound was so different that I decided against getting two sets and stringing an oud with them, at the moment, but if someone is looking for a new sound, these are it. One of these days, I'll give it a try.

The trebles are flatwound nylon on a "rope" core, the basses are flatwound silvered copper on rope. They look and feel Rolls Royce. For instance the 0.039" bass string is so flexible, it's like spaghetti al dente. The tensions work out to 2.8 to 3.4 kg, with the 0.016" c course a bit over 4 kg, lighter than 0.54" PVF.

It's a bright sound, on a Spanish guitar. The flatwound nylons sound a lot like PVF, but with amazing sustain. So smooth! You can slide more silently on the basses than on normal oud strings. There is no change in timbre at the Bass-Treble break. The strings don't even stretch a hair after you put them on; they stay in tune right away! Amazing quality and attention to detail all around.

On the oud, the basses I tried gave a zingier sound than the typical oud strings. I never had a course doubled, it might sound divine, or it might just sound odd.

In any case, there is no danger, even the tightest 4.1Kg for the cc on a long scale is within reason. The ball ends can be worked into the loop, or cut off, but careful, the bass strings are not overly long.

These sets sell for $18 at the moment from JustStrings.com, so two sets would add up into the "lute strings" price tag, not cheap, but not impossible.

are these the same thing as PJ116?

Edward Powell - 5-24-2011 at 06:37 AM

...finally read thru this whole thread... WOW FERNAND! ...you have made some fantastic research and very valuable information available and precisely presented here. . . very very useful.

I am now about to order some spools of PVF, thanks for all this info!

Edward Powell - 5-24-2011 at 07:59 AM

I am trying to find a good supplier of SEAGUAR PVF in Europe but it seems like a big confusing jungle on the INTERNET... so I thought I would ask here first if anyone yet has any luck ordering this in Europe.

The problem with ordering from the US is that shipping is about $90!!!! ...which is absurb!

Thanks if anyone can pass on some info about this!

fernandraynaud - 6-10-2011 at 09:28 AM

Update: I have been happily using the PVF fishline strings for almost a year on all ouds but one: an Egyptian whose timbre I want to keep percussive and muted. They sound great on Sukars. They do not delaminate. They settle down and stop stretching. Typically I need to touch up my wound strings' tuning every day but the PVF trebles tend to stay put, after the initial stretching. A little violin bow rosin on the string ends and on the tuning peg prevent slipping (on all strings).

PVF strings solve the problem of timbre change between the wound basses and plain trebles, because the PVF is a little bit more metallic-sounding. Problem solved. PVF has a density around 1800 kg/m^3, whereas most nylon is close to 1100 kg/m^3.

I find the Daniel Mari Arabic or Turkish sets (they are the same) at $8.99 from OstrieMusicSupplies.com excellent for C, EE, AA, DD, gg, cc or C, FF, AA, DD, gg, cc tuning on 600-620 mm ouds. The bass string is about 0.041", no problem pulling it up to D. A Spanish guitar or other silvered copper on fluff wound 0.050" string can be substituted for a stronger bass.

On a 585 mm scale Turkish oud these same strings would be tuned up to Turkish.

I then swap the nylon trebles for Seaguar Premier Leader PVF. The top cc is 0.020" or about 0.52 mm, they usually call it "30 lb", the gg is 0.025" or about 0.62 mm, they usually call it "45 lb". But the "lb" strength is variable. Go by thickness. The manufacturer is Kreha Corp. They should cost no more than about $1 per meter in 25m rolls.

For an ff top course, there's a 0.37 mm 0.015" 18 lb leader that should work fine, but I don't have a 7 course or uptuned oud to try it on.

For Europe, or the Middle East, most American suppliers aren't quite sure what to do, as they never ship outside the US. Remind them that a up to 4 lb flat rate Small Box Priority Mail to anywhere in the world costs $13.95. Delivery is usually under a week. The box is available at the post office free, and is about 8.6" by 5.4 by 1.5 inches.

Zulu - 7-7-2011 at 01:22 PM

I change the strings on my Sukar twice a year; in January and July.
I usually use PVF on the 1st & 2nd courses but this time got lazy and just put the nylons on that came with the set...big mistake!

The nylons sound dead even when brand new in comparison. If you want the zing of the wound courses to be matched then PVF is a must for the top courses!
I use the MusiCaravan PVF Treble Set.

rojaros - 7-13-2011 at 11:43 PM

I haven't tried Seaguar FC Premier on my oud yet, but I do use them constantly on my classical guitars.

All I can say is, these are the best fluorocarbons strings I aver tried; better soundwise and more consistent in terms of sound and intonation than any 'official' fc guitar string of any manufacturer I have ever tried.

Excellent material, so take your Arto's string calculator, calculate the diameters and pray that you can get Seguar FC Premier any close to what you have calculated (unfortunately the are not so many diameter steps in between, so I'm not able to find my ideal tensions for all guitar strings, the jump between the twom possible g strtings is too big...)

best wishes
Robert

rojaros - 10-11-2011 at 11:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by rojaros

I haven't tried Seaguar FC Premier on my oud yet, but I do use them constantly on my classical guitars...

Robert

To give an update: I just put for all three treble string pairs Seaguar Premier (0.41mm for ff, 0.57mm for cc and 0.74mm for gg) on my Stenzel oud. Before I had Nylgut light tension.

The Seaguar strings are at least 100% improvement for my taste.

best wishes
Robert

Edward Powell - 10-12-2011 at 12:13 AM

wow those are slightly heavy tensions no? I have .66 seaguar tuned to g#g# at 61.5cm ...what is your scale?