Mike's Oud Forums

movable bridge

samir - 9-23-2004 at 01:12 PM

hi
i am new here
i am an oud maker and player
i like to read your opinions about the oud with movable bridge,i prefer it for many reasons..
regards
samir

oudplayer - 9-23-2004 at 01:36 PM

hi samir tehy are really lovly ouds are they for sale?
thx sammy
and sound files

david - 9-23-2004 at 02:55 PM

:wavey:Hey Samir, those ouds look great! Tell these guys more about your ouds.
If you guys want to see one of Samirs older ouds(1996) take a look at the file sharing page. You'll see his signature pickgaurd.
I love that oud Samir it sounds incredible! Take care and keep up the good work.:xtreme:

Floating Bridge Sound

LeeVaris - 9-23-2004 at 08:05 PM

I am no expert but one thing i've noticed from playing my Yaroub Bashir is that it seems to respond a little better to dynamics. I think this may be one of the benefits – strike it harder and it gets louder, strike really hard and it gets louder still. My other ouds have warmer somewhat rounder tones but nothing compares to the way the Bashir just rings out when you play hard. Tell us more about your ouds Samir

Jameel - 9-24-2004 at 04:39 AM

Ahlan wa Sahlan, Samir.

It's about time! :applause:

Faladel - 9-24-2004 at 10:50 AM

Hi Samir :
Nice Ouds ¿Can you post sound??:)

modern oud

samir - 9-25-2004 at 12:48 PM

hi
thanx for replys
the movable bridge increse durability and gives the same sound quality for basic and high tones with greater power.and helps for stable tuning i think.it reduces the deformations of the sound board.
thanx
here you can find more:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/oud-samir/files/

Your Ouds

LeeVaris - 9-25-2004 at 10:36 PM

I couldn't access your "files" because I'm not a member of your Yahoo group. Could you tell us a little more about "deformations of the sound board". The sound file you posted was a little distorted ( very loud - high level) - I am developing a great appreciation for the floating bridge design and I'm interested in your approach. Your designs are quite attractive! I'm interested in 7-course ouds with shorter scale lengths.

deformations

samir - 9-26-2004 at 12:00 PM

the traditional stile of oud may allow some deformations in the soundboard cause the tension is concentrated sharply near the sticked bridge(torsion load)
this may shorten the length of the sound board and stretch the width(with some cracks sometimes)
while in the modern one its effect is just little pressure localy..

Gaps in the bridge

LeeVaris - 9-26-2004 at 12:16 PM

I notice that your bridge has gaps at the base where it meets the soundboard. I've noticed similar features on guitar and bouzouki bridges. What effect does this have on the transfer of the string vibrations to the sounboard?

gaps

samir - 9-26-2004 at 09:45 PM

the dimentions and thickness of the bridge must be made carefuly ..the gaps help to remove the metalic nature of the sound and make it more clear ..the three feet doublicate the effect ..i tried alot of solutions to reach this design..

Faladel - 9-27-2004 at 08:50 AM

Hi Samir:
¿ do you receive my E-Mail

Hello Eng. Samir

sydney - 9-27-2004 at 01:35 PM

:wavey:

Your ouds look nice and sound great too.
Please give us some prices and more details.

Also a question for you ..

Can any oud be converted to movable bridge oud?


Regards,

Emad from sydney

samir - 9-27-2004 at 02:26 PM

any oud can be converted to movable bridge , but the results may not be as we expect . that is because the design begins frome the first step on building oud..
the prices are between 300 and 500 USD
the shipping cost must be added if any..
thanx
samir

Hello again

sydney - 9-27-2004 at 05:03 PM

Eng. Samir

Thank you for your fast reply,

In case of converting a normal oud to movable bridge, is there a location to place the bridge on to start with? or is it just a trial and error thing?

about your ouds, Is there a gallery to select from? Please tell us more in regards to ordering oud from you.

Thank

Emad

Elie Riachi - 9-27-2004 at 08:39 PM

Hello Samir,

What type of bracing pattern or patterns do you use in the ouds you build, if you do not mind telling?

Also, I have a hypothis: the cut away arches make the bridge lighter and hence there would be less resistance to vibrate which would promote sound that is richer in the harmonics generated by the wood of the oud rather than being more from just the string vibrating. The more the string dominates, the more metallic the sound gets (I think!). Anyway, this would be in agreement with your experience regarding the cautaway arches in the bridge producing a less metallic sound.

Is the floating bridge glued to the soundboard or is it truely a floating bridge (does come off when changing strings)?

Regards,
Elie

Elie

sydney - 9-27-2004 at 08:45 PM

how are you man?

It is interesting topic isn't it?

I like the idea of converting one of my ouds to movable bridge style.

I thought it's called movable which means it not fixed to the sound board. What do you think? should it be fixed ?

Regards,

Emad

sure

samir - 9-27-2004 at 10:17 PM

hi friends
if you changed the bridge to floating one you would not lose anything from the sound and may be be you will get additional benifits .so, go ahead..
the bridge must NOT be glued..
Elie: i agree with you..
all: no stores sell my ouds..i have no contact with any of them till now..i send them usualy by DHL.(high cost shipping!!!!)..
love to all

Location

sydney - 9-28-2004 at 01:40 PM

Hello Eng. Samir

We thank you for your information.

I actually wanted to know since the bridge must not be glued, then where should it be placed? Is there a distance to measure from the nut down for example?

Thanks

Emad

Elie Riachi - 9-28-2004 at 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sydney
I thought it's called movable which means it not fixed to the sound board. What do you think? should it be fixed ?

Emad


Hello Emad,

I am well thank you.

As you know I am not an authority on oud building (Samir may want to add more), but here are my thoughts: As far as floating bridges go, I guess they are not glued just like the violins.

An advantage to not being glued would be not having the layer of glue between the bridge and soundboard, so more of the viration energy is transfered to the soundboard.

I am almost certain that there is a "sweet" spot that the floating bridge must be placed over just like the fixed bridge, and that probably depends on the length of the soundboard.

As for converting a fixed to floating: the fixed pulls up while the floating pushes down on the soundboard, so I would think different bracing systems work best for each. The floating bridge, depending on its location might have to be slightly taller to compensate for the pushing down on the soundbaord and possibly making the action too low.

A floating bridge may require higher tension string setting to obtain same loudness???

On the other hand, a floating bridge, make a nice clean scale length.

If I could have two, I would get one of each. But not having tried the floating and based on my reasoning, I think I would stay with the fixed bridge for just one oud.

Regards,
Elie

Dr. Oud - 9-28-2004 at 04:41 PM

Samir aziz,
The oud in your last picture appears to have a bent face, but the others are not so obvious. Do you angle the face gradually like the modern Fadels or bend the face below the bridge to get the string angle on the bridge? Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

Hello Elie

sydney - 9-28-2004 at 05:12 PM

It's good to hear from you mate,

I thank you for your good opinion. I am thinking the same too.

Going by your opinion and also the advice from my friend Greg Marsh - I guess it's not a safe idea to convert normal oud to floating bridge style.

Be well Elie


regards,

Emad

my advice

samir - 9-28-2004 at 10:24 PM

hi
i changed alot of ordinary bridges to floating ones and got good results.(just tell me who made your oud , i may give an advice ..) ..
the distance is 2 times the neck length measured from its end and going down..as in the attached pic..( L = 2 times the neck..)
elie : good ideas ..it is not essential to make it very high..
it is recommended to make special arrangment for the braces when the oud is being build..
in fact i developed a special way for preparing and fixing the soundboard to the body..since 4 years..
richard:i made the bent soundboard according to the requirments of his owner,but i dont like to apply this way on ouds..i tried it several times before that..
i bent it before fixing ( not gradually..the owner wanted that way??!!), with some pressure and heat ,not below the bridge , but between it and the down edge of the soundboard( although i dont agree!!!!) the flat surface is better..
regards
samir

Samir, can you tell the bracing secrets

Elie Riachi - 9-29-2004 at 02:51 PM

Hi Samir,

Can you tell the secrets of how you determine the size, pattern and position of the bracing for people interested in building their own oud? Or will the oud makers send a flying monkey to kill you? Or will you have to kill us if you tell us? :D :D :D :D

Thanks,
Elie

Scale length

LeeVaris - 9-29-2004 at 10:23 PM

It seems like the oud in your last recording is tuned CFAdgc - what scale length do you use for your ouds - 61cm?

secrets

samir - 9-29-2004 at 11:12 PM

elie

usualy , makers locate their braces like in the picture..notice the shape of the brace first..
i developed my own theory about the braces,solving the main question of the sound -strength eqilibrum..
so that i got more strength for more vibration..after it was : more strength gives less vibration..dont forget that i am an engineer(hummmmm)..
i could not explain everything using my little English..
but i think that i developed an important way for making and fixing the soundboard..
love to all
samir

length

samir - 9-29-2004 at 11:19 PM

i prefer just 58.5 cm
it is much better for high techniqes players
with 19.5 cm neck

Ronny Andersson - 9-30-2004 at 11:29 AM

The first so-called Bashir oud was built by Mohammed Fadel and he based his design
on the classical Italian mandolin. His Bashir oud has a soundboard that is bent and that is for structural reasons. The bent soundboard on Fadel’s oud prevents the soundboard to collapse under the high string pressure due to the short scale of 57cm and the extremely high floating bridge. The Bashir ouds by Fadel are rare since they were made for professional musicians on order and accordingly very few have had a chance to play on them or to see the unique construction. Iraqi makers like Yaroub Fadel, Fawzy Monshed prefer the flat soundboard with some reinforcements that are unique for the Iraqi oud tradition. The floating bridge is not glued but that doesn’t mean that it can be placed wherever you wish.

bent soundboard

samir - 9-30-2004 at 01:21 PM

hi
the bent sound board may reduce the vibration extremely..it acts like the arc ceilings of old buildings..
i tried this way several times and in one or two directions bending ..
the flat surface vibrates more ..and lives more safety..
thanx for sharing
samir

Secrets

Elie Riachi - 9-30-2004 at 03:45 PM

Hi Samir,

Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge friend.

Can you give the distances or how you determine these disatnces that you place the braces relative to a reference point such as the end block or the neck block?

Regards,
Elie

braces braces

samir - 9-30-2004 at 09:25 PM

hi
no general distances can be used for all ouds.they depend on the sizes of the body , the sound quality required,the way of fixing the soundboard,the length of the string , the kind of bridge used.....etc....
important: the distance between the two braces before and after the bridge is the main one,but!! no general measure too...
a kind of turkish oud braces is attached here,but i dont make like it..

Elie Riachi - 10-1-2004 at 04:50 AM

Thanks Samir,

Do you have a formula, a recipe or a procedure that you use to determine where to locate the braces for the different designs? And can you share it with us?

Regards,
Elie

Ronny Andersson - 10-3-2004 at 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by samir
hi
the bent sound board may reduce the vibration extremely..it acts like the arc ceilings of old buildings..
i tried this way several times and in one or two directions bending ..
the flat surface vibrates more ..and lives more safety..
thanx for sharing
samir


I disagree since many of the first Bashir ouds by Fadel, still are playable after long use of playing with high string tension
and they have all bent soundboards. Their sound is superior most Bashir ouds by other makers that I have came across.

Samir

dubai244 - 10-3-2004 at 08:36 PM

Dear Samir,
I have seen your ouds and they look very interesting. and it seem that you made them very accuratly. I like the way that share the information with other people, speacially, that most of the oud maker they dont share any information about making oud.
Any way, My ouds are made by Mohammad Ajaj from Jober in Damascus and love them. i am windering if i can get your address and contact number, because i am planning to visit syria soon, so i would be nice to visit you and visit your workshop.

Best regards,
dubai244