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Simon Shaheen and NPR

Jameel - 10-13-2004 at 08:19 PM

Just found this interview with my favorite living oudist.

I'm typing this as I listen so I haven't heard the whole thing. Nice so far, though.

Simon Shaheen interview

samzayed - 10-13-2004 at 11:01 PM

Check this out:
http://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/39/Simon+Shaheen+on+the+o... (2003)

He makes some interesting, yet possibly controversal points

Ronny Andersson - 10-15-2004 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by samzayed
Check this out:
http://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/39/Simon+Shaheen+on+the+o... (2003)

He makes some interesting, yet possibly controversal points

I think it would be appropriate for a so called professional musician to be more gentle with his statements. Especially when it's obvious the person have little knowledge in some parts of the oud world. Bashir is an icon for Iraqi poeple just as Farid are for the Egyptians and you know to well how infected it can be.
It's enough to listen to the Iraqi school and you know what they can do with the poor f string.

samzayed - 10-15-2004 at 02:54 PM

He makes the use of the f string seem like a shortcut to avoid playing down the neck. This may be true for some, however, I think this concept was introduced by oud soloists to increase the range of their ouds. A good example of this is Anouar Brahem, Charbel Rouhana, and Naseer Shamma.

I am soo tempted to change tunings to F A D g c' f'

is Naseer Shamma imitating Munir Bashir!!??

walkad - 10-17-2004 at 10:34 AM

This is what Shaheen said about Shamma:

"Okay, [Naseer] Shamma. I heard him one time. He comes from this school, imitating Munir Bashir and this kind of thing. I don't know what his relationship with the improvisational world is, because I didn't hear much of the improvisation. But he composes things like imitating sounds, like sirens, or natural things, you know? But I don't know much about his repertoire"

I am astonished. I cant beleive somebody who calls himself an oudplayer saying this.
Even a deff person can hear that Naseer and Bashir have completely diferents styles. And if he doesnt know about Naseers repertoire than he should shut up.

LeeVaris - 10-17-2004 at 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by walkad
Even a deff person can hear that Naseer and Bashir have completely diferents styles. And if he doesnt know about Naseers repertoire than he should shut up.

Yes... a lot of what Simon says in this interview is just not worth commenting on. He's so obviously chauvinistic about his particular style of playing. He's a great player but he's closed off to other approaches/styles - so much so that he clearly doesn't listen to much contemporary playing. Too bad... real innovation comes from people with an open mind!

personally, I love that high "f" string

Zulkarnain - 10-17-2004 at 04:00 PM

Maybe he want to be the King of Oud... :shrug:

Thank you Jameel

sydney - 10-17-2004 at 07:54 PM

Hey Jameel :wavey:

Thanks for telling us about this interview.. man Simon is a real pro.

Amazing how he could be in full control of two different instrumnts Violin is not an easy one and oud too. In my opinion he is far better than many other players since he managed to master two of the hardest instruments.

He is one of my favorite players too.

Sam, I agree with what Simon said about the f string - only if I look at it from how it came about adding an extra string. I am with you that today the use of the f string is rather different to some oud players but it is a laziness to others.

At the end of the day , everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Love to all

Emad

Adel - 10-18-2004 at 07:21 AM

hi everybody,
I have recordings of our masters like Qasabjy and Sunbaty using the F string....
Also masters like jamil Bashir and his brother Munir bashir used the f strings.....and what Jamil bashir produced on that F string no oud player on earth has matched him..;
Their is nothing wrong with the F string...
If you go back to the old Egyptian oud , you will find that it had 7 strings on it....i.e the top F and the bottom C...
Good luck,
Adel

Brian Prunka - 10-18-2004 at 03:10 PM

Wow, this sure has stirred up a lot of discussion. It seems to me that Simon's comments are being blown out of proportion and being misinterpreted somewhat.

Here's what Simon said about the high f string:

I notice that in many instances musicians add the F string because of [lack of] technical abilities. Instead of playing on the fingerboard of the oud, instead of using different positions up and down, they would rather stay in one position and then use the F string. They prefer to stay in one position and play the higher notes on the F.

He said "in many instances".
I think it's pretty clear that Simon is not opposed the F string per se, but only when it ends up limiting the players. He was obviously not referring to Munir Bashir or Mohammed el Qassabji.

here's his comment on Munir Bashir:
Munir Bashir as a player, definitely he was a fantastic player

and Qassabji:
His oud playing is fabulous . . . and he was one of those who, later in the 40s and 50s, was responsible for adding the high string to widen the range of his oud, but he wasn't captivated by it

I've personally heard many oud players that do use the high f as a shortcut; it's not like he made that up. It seems very clear that he wasn't talking about Munir Bachir.

Walkad, Simon's admission that he doesn't know that much about Shamma was pretty much "shutting up" as you put it. He was asked to say what he thought about these oud players; it's not like he was going out of his way to put down Shamma. He seemed to be trying to say as little as he reasonably could about Shamma.
his comments:
I heard him one time. He comes from this school, imitating Munir Bashir and this kind of thing. I don't know what his relationship with the improvisational world is, because I didn't hear much of the improvisation. But he composes things like imitating sounds, like sirens, or natural things, you know? But I don't know much about his repertoire.
let's see, he refused to comment on Shamma's improvisation, and said as little as he could about his compositions. It doesn't sound to me like he was disparaging Shamma; just saying that he comes from the Bachir school of playing and that he doesn't know much else about him.

As far as Shamma and Bashir having "completely" different styles, it seems quite clear that Bachir was a big influence on Shamma, especially when you compare what he does with traditional playing. They have a lot of differences, of course, but Shamma does seem to come from the Bachir school of playing. Simon didn't say that Shamma sounds like Bachir, just that he imitated him and comes from his school of playing. Do you think that Shamma has not been influenced by Bachir?

Simon's ability to hear is incredible. He has by far the most sensitive ears of any musician I have ever met, and I've met some amazing musicians. I'm talking about people who could hear an improvisation one time and play it back from memory without even consulting their instrument. Who could transcribe every part from hearing a full orchestra. Simon beats them all; he can play back a taqasim that his father played once 40 years ago. His intonation is precise down to fractions of a quarter tone (he on more than one occasion demonstrated about 10 specific notes between D and E). He has an enormous repertoire. I heard a recording of him when he was FIVE YEARS OLD, and he sounded amazing. To suggest that he is deaf is preposterous. Much more likely, he's hearing something (or a lack thereof) that others are not aware of.

here's another comment of his that puts things in perspective:
all these players--Mohamed Zinelabadine (of Tunisia), Bashir, Shamma, Chraïbi--it's interesting that they care to introduce the oud not only as an accompaniment instrument but also as a solo instrument, so this is a great thing.

He actually says that what Shamma is doing is a great thing, furthering the oud as a solo instrument.

Lee,
Simon is not chauvanistic about his style of playing, he is just very much concerned with maintaining the roots of the traditional taqasim and the traditional repertoire. This far transcends any concern about his personal "style." Simon is not just a great player but has an incredible depth of knowledge about the tradition. The subtleties of intonation, modulation, the development of the maqam, use of ornaments that were passed down through his family are a treasure that is in real danger of being lost to future generations. If he sometimes sounds reactionary, it's because he loves Arabic music so much that he doesn't want the tradition to be lost. He's not opposed or closed to innovation, he just wishes that people don't lose the depth of the tradition in the process.

Of course, I know Simon so I'm biased, but part of the reason I'm biased is because I know how incredibly generous he is as a musician and as a person. The retreat that he leads every year is a monument to his generosity. He has created a beautiful community of people who are devoted to preserving and spreading the tradition of Arabic music. He doesn't get anything out of the retreat personally; he just does it for the music. How many other musicians spend as much time and effort to help keep the tradition alive?

Jameel - 10-18-2004 at 05:31 PM

Thanks Brian for the interesting info on Simon. You are lucky to have gleaned so much from Shaheen. I think his love of traditional music is a real asset. I only have one complaint. Where are some new recordings? I don't think there is anyone here who would not welcome some traditional albums along the lines of his Abdel Wahab album. (a personal favorite). I hear he is going to release a couple this year. Heard anything about this?

samzayed - 10-18-2004 at 06:08 PM

I didn't intend to cause this much comotion by posting the article. I feel like a trouble maker! :rolleyes:

In hindsight, there have been a lot of thought provoking comments made here, and that is the intention of this forum.

Brian, thanks for the clarification from Simon's perspective. I hope to someday make it to the retreat!

Thank you Jameel and Brian

sydney - 10-19-2004 at 02:50 AM

Amazing how we can easily misunderstand things and take words the wrong way.

I recently have come across one of the people here in the forum who sadly misunderstood me. I was even sent e-mails full of insults out of no reason from that person.

Love to you all Fine people .. Oud lovers

Emad

Hey Mr. Brian how come we don't get to listen to your music any more? Huh?

stay well

walkad - 10-19-2004 at 05:04 AM

As far as Shamma and Bashir having "completely" different styles, it seems quite clear that Bachir was a big influence on Shamma, especially when you compare what he does with traditional playing. They have a lot of differences, of course, but Shamma does seem to come from the Bachir school of playing. Simon didn't say that Shamma sounds like Bachir, just that he imitated him and comes from his school of playing. Do you think that Shamma has not been influenced by Bachir?

Ok, my english is maybe not good, but I think there are a difference btwn when someone is influenced and imitating.

I am sure that our friend shaheen is not deff, I am sure that he his a good oud player, and I am sure of that I dont like the way he put his judgement on oud players that makes him fade away when compared to him.

Brian Prunka - 10-19-2004 at 11:27 AM

Hey Emad,

I agree that it's easy to take things the wrong way; communication is such a tricky thing. Especially when someone is trying to communcate in a second language (like Simon).

Sorry I haven't posted any music lately (or anything really); I've been really busy. I'm borrowing one of Najib's ouds & I'll record something soon . . .

Walkad, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I'd like to point out that the way music is learned is through imitation. So it's not an insult to say someone has imitated a great player. It's clear that Simon has spent a lot of time imitating both Riad al-Sounbati and Farid (and of course his father, Hikmat Shaheen). That doesn't take away from his identity, and it doesn't take away from Shamma to say he has imitated Munir Bachir. It's obvious from listening to him that he has spent quite a bit of time imitating Bachir; now he has moved on and has his own identity, but it's still very Bachir influenced. This isn't a bad thing; Bachir was brilliant and had a unique, beautiful style. I think we all love the oud, so why do we get so territorial about one approach or another? Shamma plays some beautiful music. So does Simon. They are completely different and it's a waste of time trying to say who's the best.
As far as him judging other players, again, he was asked to do so, and I thought he showed a lot of restraint in basically not really commenting on Shamma. If you were being interviewed and were asked your opinions on several oud players, would you just say everyone was great?

Jameel,
From what I know, Simon is recording another Qantara album, and an album of taqasim. On the taqasim album he plans to use several of his old ouds, including a few Nahats and (I think) a Gamil Georges. As for another album like the Wahab, I've been trying to talk him into it . . . at least he's going to reissue the Wahab. It's been OOP for a while now.

walkad - 10-21-2004 at 07:39 AM

Brian, it was very obvious that used Simon discribed Shamma as imitating Munir Bashir in a very negative way. This cant be missunderstood and you sound like a New York lawyer (you maybe are:-)).

A big part of the interview was carried in an immature way, Simon could have avoided making a fool of himself just by not giving comments on players (lets not say better than him) who play in the same league.
He sounded like a teacher giving his opinion on students, the hole undertone is he makes himself sound so superior to the others (sadly this is what many musicians do when they achieve a high level)

And once again Brian you are very wrong when you say that its obvious that Shamma's imitating Munir Bashir. You seem to think that everyone who use a Bashir oud is imitating Munir Bashir. Those two person have very as different playing style as it can be.
In very few words you can say that Shamma has a technique that is more based on the left hand while Munir Bashir is more on the right hand.

I've sensed that many who speaks about the "iraqi" playing style is meaning playing with Bashir ouds, and this is wrong. If you listen to players like Salman Shukur, Jamil Bashir and Salem Abdel Karem (who has influenced Naseer Shamma very much) you can see that each of them has a very different style and though they all represent parts of the iraqi oud tradition.
If you listen to what Shaheen said on that matter you get the impression that iraqi oud playing technique is mainly turkish.

Karim Kadiri - 10-21-2004 at 04:43 PM

If you liked Simon's stuff, you should also check out Said Chraibi. If you like traditional however try to find stuff by Ahmed Albidaoui (the greatest)

Hello walkad

sydney - 10-21-2004 at 10:44 PM

:wavey:

How are you brother,

I was wondering if there is an e-mail address for Simon that you can contact him on and ask him what he really means with what he says. I see you are unhappy with some of what he said here and there. Honestly I'd contact him and confront him. It would be nice to get a feed back from you.

On the other hand , I see you jealous fan over Shamma. I do respect that man. I do like him too.

I wonder if you could post something you play or Shamma plays .. Do you care to share ?

Best regards.

Emad from Sydney

walkad - 10-21-2004 at 11:13 PM

Hi Emad,
thank you I am fine, and I hope that all oud maniacs like me, whatever opinions they have also is fine...

I am more of a Bashir brothers fan (Munir and Jameel). I like Shamma but his not my favourite.
Simon Shaheen has many admirers, many who doesnt know much about arabic music culture, and they will believe much of his let's say missunderstandings.

Thats why I feel its more constructive to bring those things up in an open forum and Mr Shaheen can still defend himself if I or someone else have been injust to him.

Naseer Shamma fans has no reason to be jealous. Naseer Shamma is probable the most famous oud player alive. No one of his generation of oud players can even dream to achieving half the success that Shamma achieved.

I cant see in what context posting a sample of my oud playing fits in this discussion.

Regards

Zulkarnain - 10-21-2004 at 11:25 PM

For Shamma's Fans

Ronny Andersson - 10-21-2004 at 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zulkarnain
For Shamma's Fans

Ronny Andersson - 10-21-2004 at 11:37 PM

>I wonder if you could post something >you play or Shamma plays .. Do you care >to share ?

That was pretty low.

Brian Prunka - 10-22-2004 at 10:09 AM

Okay, the Swedes win . . .
For the record, it is now my opinion that:
1) Simon is an arrogant, ignorant amateur and his admirers are stupid
2) Naseer Shamma is the greatest living oud player and his admirers have unique powers of perception
3) No Iraqi oud player has been significantly influenced by Munir Bachir
4) musicians should refuse to give their opinions even when asked, unless their opinion is that Shamma is great.
5) All reasonable people must share this opinion.

(before you guys flame me--i'm joking! i'm just tired of this pointless arguing, so you can have the last word)

moving on, thanks Walkad for pointing me towards Salem Abdel Karem; I listened to some stuff from his website and he sounds great. :applause:

I'm definitely going to check him out more. Apparently (according to Issa Boulos' site) one of his teachers was Palestinian, is that correct? :shrug:

there are so many excellent and distinct oud players . . . i was thinking it would be a cool thread to post as many players as we could find doing a taqsim in the same maqam (say, bayati?), just to hear all the variety within a specific context. Maybe something productive could come out of this discussion . . . any thoughts?

Zulkarnain - 10-22-2004 at 10:32 AM

One more for Shamma's Fans!

Ronny Andersson - 10-22-2004 at 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zulkarnain
One more for Shamma's Fans!

Ronny Andersson - 10-22-2004 at 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Okay, the Swedes win . . .

:xtreme:

Karim Kadiri - 10-22-2004 at 03:40 PM

I just read the interview in question and I'm not surprised. Simon is a good friend but we disagree a lot about what makes a great Oud player. It is certainly not speed but rather the ability to move people and keep them hooked from the first to the last note. Anybody that thinks F sting player do not have technical ability should but Said Chraibi's stuff.

Karim Kadiri - 10-22-2004 at 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeeVaris

Quote:

Originally posted by walkad
Even a deff person can hear that Naseer and Bashir have completely diferents styles. And if he doesnt know about Naseers repertoire than he should shut up.

amarock - 10-22-2004 at 06:13 PM

Hi my friends
What a passion in that discussion!!

Fist of all Simon is a great player with a style of playing that i know because i am from his region (Israel or Palestine...as everyone want

).
I can understand his position about the famous f string because of my teacher Samir Makhoul.
In fact i begun to learn oud alone,by hearing,and because of my poor technical abilities,i decided to add f strings in my oud and then my tuning was F a d g c f.
When i begun to learn with Samir he fist told me that we will not use it because a oud player plays high notes on the fingerboard and it is a good way to
develop technical abilities on oud.After three years of learning...he was right !
But I think that if someone whant to play these notes with f strings,when his rast is on c and not on f,there is nothing wrong!
The most important thing is that you feel good with you playing and no matter what others are thinking about! :wavey:

Bruno

Hello Fine people

sydney - 10-22-2004 at 07:33 PM

dear Ronny,
What was "pretty low" in asking someone to post somthing they play or a nice recording of Shamma? I never thought a simple request would push anyone to say that. Was that your own opinion or someone got you to say that?

I choose to forgive you any way.

walkad,

Thanks for your reply.

I regret joining in this subject.

Regards,
Emad.

Ronny Andersson - 10-22-2004 at 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sydney
dear Ronny,
What was "pretty low" in asking someone to post somthing they play or a nice recording of Shamma? I never thought a simple request would push anyone to say that. Was that your own opinion or someone got you to say that?

I choose to forgive you any way.

walkad,

Thanks for your reply.

I regret joining in this subject.

Regards,
Emad.

You are still a pretty low Sydney.

yes you dare to share .

sydney - 10-22-2004 at 10:40 PM

Ronny

I still choose to forgive you.

Thank you

Emad

Zulkarnain - 10-23-2004 at 12:23 AM

Another one for Shamma's Fans!

Ronny Andersson - 10-23-2004 at 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sydney
Ronny

I still choose to forgive you.

Thank you

Emad

I forgive you!

Ronny Andersson - 10-23-2004 at 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zulkarnain
Another one for Shamma's Fans!

Mike - 10-23-2004 at 06:08 AM

What started out as a very interesting discussion with excellent points from both sides regarding the "f" string, has now unfortunately turned into offensive comments we don't need on these forums. Please refrain from doing this, or else we will have to close this topic.

First off, I want to thank Jameel for the initial posting and link, and also thank Sam for the link to the interview.

Sam, I think you made the best comment regarding the addition of the "f" string when you wrote, "...I think this concept was introduced by oud soloists to increase the range of their ouds." I have seen at least three guys play with a 7 course oud who have NOT added the "f" string due to a lack of technical ability.

As far as the comments Simon made about Naseer Shamma, I think any objective reader can conclude that Simon doesn't have a lot of respect for Naseer's style. My opinion on this is the following: He is free to have any opinions he wants, but as a professional musician it is not "professional" to belittle a fellow oud player like that in a published article. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon as Naseer was guilty of doing something similar when he made a crazy comment about Farid el-Atrache in another online article. Ultimately, I'd much rather listen to these guys playing their ouds than speaking.

Brian Prunka - 10-23-2004 at 12:39 PM

Hey Mike, you're absolutely right.
I'd rather listen to any musician play than hear him talk . . .

I guess coming from a jazz background, I have a different threshold about what constitutes belittling another musician . . . it's sort of a hazing ritual and we don't take those kind of comments too seriously. It's like when Branford Marsalis said about a particular player that that's why guitars should be banned from jazz . . . by jazz standards, Simon was practically being nice. Maybe he's been hanging out with too many jazz players in Qantara

I'm so used to outstanding musicians being far more scathing in their opinions in interviews (keith jarrett and wynton marsalis are about ready for a cage match) that it doesn't faze me. it's still not the best way to go, but artists are people too, and none of them lack flaws. I was just trying to correct what I think is a misunderstanding of what Simon was trying to say about the F string (after all, he praised Kassabgi, Bachir, and Said Chraibi, and likes Charbel Rouhana, though he didn't mention him), and counter what seemed to me to be an overreaction to his comments.
So, sorry if things got out of hand. I hope no one took my comments as personal attacks . . .

Brian

walkad - 10-23-2004 at 01:37 PM

Brian you dont give up dont you

?

It doesnt matter what background you have, jazz, blues, gregorian chants what Simon said about other musicians and about iraqi oud playing was clear and couldn't be missunderstood.

Anyway, I dont mind discussion with temprament as long as we avoid offending each others (after all I am iraqi, and iraqis cant discuss without getting angry

).

Mike, I'm very curious, do you have the link to the article that Shamma spoke about Farido?

Regards

Some humor

Elie Riachi - 10-23-2004 at 02:13 PM

Here is one for Both camps

PEACE,

Mike - 10-23-2004 at 03:00 PM

Hi Walkad,

Sorry, I don't have the link anymore. This was a heated topic on the old Farido website forum by the way. It was almost exactly like the image Elie put up! :mad:

Anyway, maybe somebody else might have that link who used to frequent that website.

Just a quick note: I think Wassim is getting ready to put the site back up again soon. So keep checking in!

Another quick note: There are two new files for Haytham Safia on the MP3 Page.

Take care,
Mike

Rufi - 10-26-2004 at 10:15 PM

I thought that some of you Might like to listen to this interview with Naseer Shamma.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1222985

The Truely important thing about art is its expression and it is unimportant to decide who's expression is more valid or better than anothers especially at the level that these two express themselves on thier instrument.
Arrogance and conciet come from an individuals insecurities about themself and thier place in the world.
Hamza El Din Is certainly not the worlds best virtuoso on the oud but his music has touched and inspired people in very deep ways. he is very humble and happy with the blessings he has recieved.
He is a master of expression and a truely wonderful artist.
Thank you all for your thoughtful discussion.
sincerely
Rufie

What the hell??!!

bahleh13 - 11-5-2004 at 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronny Andersson

Quote:

You are still a pretty low Sydney.

yes you dare to share .

There must be a very good explanation for such remark, Ronny. Such action is quite unwelcome and uncivilized among us in the forums, and I (speaking of myself only) demand to know a good reason to issue such a remark TWICE, for from what I see, there is no obvious reason for such action.

Mike I dunno if this didnt catch your attention, but the fact is it was issued twice. I think the best idea is to remove such comment, especially since it is not accepted in a civilized conversation, and it is an insult to a respectable person here in the forum (my opinion, but after a very careful consideration I can safely say most do think so too), and I demand as a member of the forum that this and all threads should be free from such phrasings and harsh comments to one another. People can save these for other times and places.

Yours truly,
Basel

P.S. sorry for the late post, too much studies

Mike - 11-5-2004 at 05:16 AM

Hi Basel,

I actually did address this above. I chose not to delete any comments at the time. I would much rather just end it here, and not demand any explanations. Since the interesting discussion points of this thread are now dead anyway, this topic is now closed.

Mike