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gg nylon course: what makes it ring?

Edward Powell - 8-15-2012 at 02:30 AM

Hi Oud Wizards out there...

...I guess we can all admit that the weak point of an oud is the "gg nylon" course. What I mean is that the most commonly problematic course is the "gg" course ("neva" course in Turkish).

I think the reason for this is that standard guages produce a string which has significantly less tension than the other courses... and if we would go for a thicker string, then once we reach a higher tension the thickness would be too thick to be thin enough to produce a nice tone.

In my experience the ouds which have had a really nice "gg" sound had very light bracing and very thin soundboard - so the gg came out nice but the overall tone of the oud lacked volume and punch (which comes with heavier soundboard). This is not to say that I have not heard ouds that sounded great all the way around.

I'd like to ask for other's opinions and experience with the gg course and see if we can figure out how to solve this problem....

thanks!

spyblaster - 8-15-2012 at 04:49 AM

my solution is a bit easier: just throw the damn nylon pair in the garbage and use a metal pair. lute string etc. that's what Naseer does.

Jody Stecher - 8-15-2012 at 06:15 AM

Try Aquila nylgut for neva/gg. It delivers a sound with more body yet is not too tight or thick. This is from their lighter set.

farukturunz - 8-15-2012 at 07:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

Hi Oud Wizards out there...

...I guess we can all admit that the weak point of an oud is the "gg nylon" course. What I mean is that the most commonly problematic course is the "gg" course ("neva" course in Turkish).

I think the reason for this is that standard guages produce a string which has significantly less tension than the other courses... and if we would go for a thicker string, then once we reach a higher tension the thickness would be too thick to be thin enough to produce a nice tone.

In my experience the ouds which have had a really nice "gg" sound had very light bracing and very thin soundboard - so the gg came out nice but the overall tone of the oud lacked volume and punch (which comes with heavier soundboard). This is not to say that I have not heard ouds that sounded great all the way around.

I'd like to ask for other's opinions and experience with the gg course and see if we can figure out how to solve this problem....

thanks!

Hi Eddi,

In my opinion there is no any ready recipe to improve this problematic course.
It just stands in the critical band of the resonance distribution of the oud's soundboard. The fundamental frequency of gg string is 196.00Hz (G3) I will discuss this "critical band" later if you or someone else are interested in a discussion

)

Yes, "light bracing" with a very thin soundboard help gg to come out "nice". Lacking volume and punch indicate that there is very little resonant areas for the overtones of gg 196.00...

To overcome imbalance problems my tip is to arrange a resonant area for the nylone strings at just around the bridge location but at the same time arrange resonant areas for the overtones (third: 588.00 -this is very close to D5-587.33 / fourth: 784.00 G5 and fifth overtone 980.00 very little less than B5:987.77)

Of course, for haphazard constructions there is very little chance for certain frequencies to be located on the soundboard. Only by making thousands experiments one can come accross with an outcome like that. Or...NEVER!!!

I suggest you use "Brace Tuning and Calculation Method".

A SIMPLE CALCULATION METHOD:

You must know the eigenfrequencies of the points (on an unbraced S.B.) which take place at just the centre of the bracing line, by tapping them. Name these eigenfrequencies as "natural frequencies of the brace line centers" and symbolize them as "Fn"s

Then you will find out the modified frequency "Fm"of a central point by multiplying Fn by f (specific frequency of a brace) and then taking the square root of that multiplication. Note down the Fm's!

Then, you need to find out the overal Regional Resonance Frequencies "RRF" applying a similar calculation to the contiguous braces' Fm's. For instence to find out the RRF around the bridge multiply Fm(1) by Fm(2) and then take square root of the multiplication.

The base of my Brace Tuning and Calculation Method is so simple.

You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's.

This is worth to concentrate on and try.

With my best regards...

oudistcamp - 8-15-2012 at 08:05 AM

Faruk,

Please define "Modified Frequency".
Please define " Regional Resonance Frequency"

" You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's."
Do you mean to use the known fundamental frequency of gg (196.00) and its overtones as the targetted RRFs and work backwards on the algorithm?

Edward Powell - 8-15-2012 at 10:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster

my solution is a bit easier: just throw the damn nylon pair in the garbage and use a metal pair. lute string etc. that's what Naseer does.

lute strings are gut? no?
What do you mean metal pair...? you mean like a steel string? like 0.012 guage? ...problem with that is that that would need to be played with finger nails -- but I guess naseer does this...

Edward Powell - 8-15-2012 at 10:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz

The base of my Brace Tuning and Calculation Method is so simple.

You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's.

This is worth to concentrate on and try.

With my best regards...

Well, it reminds me of all those wonderful evenings and days we spent together in your workshop - trying to make ragmakamtar #3 which was like a guitar - and therefore we could not take advantage of your brace tuning method...... but now my ragmakamtars are so similar to ouds, that logically it seems that your method should work perfectly on these instruments?

So yes I think now it is time to test out your method on my next ragmakamtar. . . . I wonder if we could do this over the internet or it would be necessary for me to come down to Istanbul (I have been meaning to visit again for a long time).

I think this could also be an ultimate test of your method also (which is obviously working with your ouds) - which so far has not been tested by another luthier, correct?

farukturunz - 8-15-2012 at 11:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oudistcamp

Faruk,

Please define "Modified Frequency".
Please define " Regional Resonance Frequency"

" You must create some algorithms by starting from the targetted RRF's."
Do you mean to use the known fundamental frequency of gg (196.00) and its overtones as the targetted RRFs and work backwards on the algorithm?

oudistcamp,

Modified Frequency refers to the resultant frequency (brace frequency is added on the eigenfrequency on the soundboard)

Modified frequencies do not correspond the vibration where they occur. The braces and the part of the soundboard adhered to them are the least vibrating "elements" on the S.B. Their function is to determine the vibrating frequency interval between two braces (Regional Resonance Frequency).

This method necessitates to accept the possibility that wood can be treated as a commensurable material since only the frequency is respected, not the metric or dimensional features!!!

This frequency attachment of mine (let's say "Frequencysophia" ) is the essence of a new paradigm in the art of luthiery proposed with/ by my "Brace Tuning and Calculation Method".

Yes, I mean exactly what you guess: ...to use the known fundamental frequency of gg (196.00) and its overtones as the targetted RRFs and work backwards on the algorithm! That's it...

Kind regards...

farukturunz - 8-15-2012 at 12:24 PM

[rquote
So yes I think now it is time to test out your method on my next ragmakamtar. . . . I wonder if we could do this over the internet or it would be necessary for me to come down to Istanbul (I have been meaning to visit again for a long time).

I think this could also be an ultimate test of your method also (which is obviously working with your ouds) - which so far has not been tested by another luthier, correct?

[/ rquote]

Yes Eddi, I always remember those times with blessing: During our talks I've gained a good vocabulary thanks to your adequacy in English as a native speaker; also I had the chance to think over on it. As a result I could revise and refine the "Brace tuning and Calculation Method".
So, you may think that the older ouds before this revision and refinement had not been so good...No, they were liked by the oudoists and also I liked them; but they were not exactly like what I had assumed. Tuning Method was working in a different mechanism other than the way I had been considering up to time I fully understood it. It was working but in different intervals: For instance I was hoping to allocate a certain Frequency to a particular area, but either the fourth or the fifth of that frequency was settled there. This allocation choice is critically important to be able to assess the high range fundamental string frequencies around the bridge area and the overtones of the bass strings to the onward parts of the S.B. ( closer to the neck) Thus you feel the wound strings sappier due to their overtones are resonating enough. See my post to this thread:Wrong design of soundboard may cause loose string http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2945#pid192...

As for your proposal... OK. Why not? You can send me the layout of your new Ragmakamtar's S.B. Together with the eigenfrequencies you "hear" by tapping the central points of the brace locations on the S.B.
I need to know the frequencies of the strings on it as well...
I may propose you some RRF's and we can discuss. Let's go Eddi in that way!

Anyhow some luthiers may attempt to try my method. This is what I dream.

By these detailed explanations I've finally disposed of an enigmatic shroud of the formidable couple of words: "Brace Tuning"

Every day I take the result of a new "ultimate test". This method is a fountain of enthusiasm inspires you for a "new sound quest" relentlessly...Recently (within two months) I've tested 8 different RRF compositions. The outcomes are enough to be sure for the sufficiency of my method.

The number of possible RRF compositions is endless

)

Otherwise how all ouds could be speaking in their personal but unrefined language ??? Whereas no Brace Tuning or any particular method grounding on some commensurable elements is said to be applied...

My method is not for making the oud produce "better" sound, but produce the "sound" that your imagination could ever create

and you have ever heard... like the sound of an oud made by an old master luthier.

oudistcamp - 8-15-2012 at 04:15 PM

Frequencysophia......

spyblaster - 8-15-2012 at 09:50 PM

i meant wound strings, sorry for that. Naseer uses wound strings but i don't know which instrument they are made for. however, my teacher uses wound strings and he says its for lute(he is a friend of Naseer and uses some of his advices)

Edward Powell - 8-15-2012 at 11:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster

i meant wound strings, sorry for that. Naseer uses wound strings but i don't know which instrument they are made for. however, my teacher uses wound strings and he says its for lute(he is a friend of Naseer and uses some of his advices)

OK, so normally oud used for the "dd" (dugah) course, a wound 0.024w or 0.023w string.

Yes it makes sense to me to use a similar wound string also for the "gg" course, but that would have to be 0.018w or 0.019w..... I don't think these are available????

The thinnest I have ever seen or tried is 0.022w and they broke very easily.

I would appreciate more detailed and clear info regarding what possible workable wound string alternatives there can be for the nylon "gg" course - THANKS!

Edward Powell - 8-15-2012 at 11:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by farukturunz

As for your proposal... OK. Why not?

Hi Faruk
Great!!! ...I think at the moment I have gone about as far as I can go on my own efforts - I have narrowed the thing down dramatically, but now it needs to be taken to the next level and I strongly suspect that your Brace Tuning Method is the missing link. Currently I am tuning the AIR with wonderful results in the bass register, but as for at the soundboard frequencies I am currently simply operating on intuition and guess work and the results are unfortunately "hit and miss".

farukturunz - 8-16-2012 at 12:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

your Brace Tuning Method is the missing link.

OK Eddi,

We can start a joint-survey on your next Ragmakamtar.

spyblaster - 8-16-2012 at 12:35 AM

i just asked him. he uses pyramid lute strings which and he confirmed that those strings are expensive and have a short life. he didn't know the thickness(going to measure soon). but i have a pyramid 655/11 set on of my ouds. it has 0.022 for dd and i have used it for more than one year and it's still in one piece. and we usually use 0.029 for AA. so how about 0.029 for AA, 0.025 for dd and 0.022 for gg? i think it will be stable and sound good.
p.s. all my measurements are in inches, how about yours?(i don't know what 0.022w means

)

Edward Powell - 8-16-2012 at 03:32 AM

usually string measurements are in inches... but PVF seems to be more commonly in mm...
then there are indian string coils which go by numbers #000 #00 #0 #1 #2.... #28 #29 etc etc

well it is worth a try to experiment with a wound gg... I still would guess that 0.022 would be too thick and tight... probably a 0.019 would be better (?) have to get some custom strings made?

fernandraynaud - 8-16-2012 at 04:01 AM

Edward, for what it's worth, what I've been using on the top (cc and gg) courses on my 600mm scale ouds, with good tension, timbre and volume on th gg course is dual layer PVF ("carbon"). Have you experimented with such PVF? For those who haven't, here are the details.

It's heavier than Nylon or Nylgut, about 1800kg/m^3 as opposed to nylon's 1050kg/m^3, and has a brighter timbre that blends imperceptibly with a wound 3rd course. The character of PVF filament with two cencentric layers is that the outer layer is softer and so the timbre is not as bright as if the harder inner material were extruded as a monofilament. I love the way the gg course sounds like the DD. On an ebony (or coated) fingerboad, with strong fingering, it's almost indistinguishable.

I use Seaguar fishing Leader that was discovered by classical guitarists. It's as evenly extruded as any musical string, stable and very durable. At the local boutique angler shop they asked which instrument I play. The Premier and the Blue Label are similar. The Red Label is a (cheaper) monofilament, but I have not tried it yet. For the cc course a Blue label 0.020" (0.520mm) works well, giving about 3.7kg tension on 600mm, and for the gg course I like the 0.024" (0.62mm) Premier yielding around 3.1kg.

A 0.026" (0.660mm "50lb") Blue Label could be used on the gg, it's a popular gauge, for about 3.5kg on a 600mm scale.

Seaguar's "lb" ratings are pounds, the strength of the line in a fishing application, and THEIR reason for the dual layer construction is so knots don't slip. Good for us too. The Blue Label is always a hair thicker for an equivalent "lb" rating, so there must be some slight difference.

Between the Premier and the Blue you can find Seaguar Dual Layer leaders in 0.013", 0.015, 0.016, 0.018, 0.020, 0.022, 0.024, 0.026, 0.028, 0.029, 0.031 and 0.032 in the range of interest to us. You can use Arto's New String Calculator to compute the tensions, he has "Carbon" in the density drop-down. Spools of 25 yds cost 10 to 25 US dollars depending on thickness, $0.45 to $1.13 a string, primo strings! I get a Daniel Mari set and toss the nylons.

http://www.seaguar.com/products/leaders.htm

Edward Powell - 8-16-2012 at 04:15 AM

Hi Ferny
I have not yet tried PVF on the gg... I now have PVF on the other 2 courses and they sound great!
I need to buy some... I tried a used .66mm PVF on the gg and it did not sound great... maybe cuz it was old already?
I am going to order some PVF asap and will let you know how it works.....

where is the best and cheapest place on-line to get PVF?

THANKS!

fernandraynaud - 8-16-2012 at 08:35 PM

Yo, Eddie, what it IS!

If you look up my e-mail and send me a usable postal address, I'll drop a coupla yards of 0.62mm (0.024") Seaguar Premier Leader in an envelope fer ya. If you need more length than 36" length per string, let me know. I don't have any thicker PVF. But I have 0.015", 0.018 and 0.020" Seaguar if you want to try 'em. If the 0.024" is a little too light for your gg course, the ever-popular 0.026" (0.66mm) "50 lb" Blue Label could be good. At least you'll have an idea.

I think the DD course tends to be the tightest course on an oud, so for consistency on the gg maybe even a 0.028"? I expected 0.018" at 3.1kg to be best for the cc course, but the 0.020" turned out faaaabulous in spite of the seemingly high 3.7kg tension.

Normally you'd pick the PVF you want from Seaguar's site, then cast for the fishing equipment vendor with the best price. I don't think any musical string repackager has as wide a range of PVF as Seaguar, their quality is super, the price is great. But I haven't seen smaller spools than 25 yards, though there was some sort of a trial 10 yard package once.

You could try contacting the Seaguar office in the US or the plant in Japan to see if they'd send you some 2.5 meter samples of different types/gauges. Tell 'em you're an influential instrument maker, and that your instruments use LOTS of strings! Know what I'm sayin'?

At the yuppie angler shop in Berkeley they were showing me several other fancy brands of PVF leader that they said were also popular with flamenco guitarists, classical guitarists, lutenists, gambists, ... and even fishermen.

Luttgutt - 8-16-2012 at 11:58 PM

Hi Tony and Eddi!
Long time now :-)

Eddi, I usually use Aquila Nylgyt on my gg. And it works fine on "almost" all my ouds.

But lately, Fernand sent me PVF gg :bowdown:

I tried it on one oud, and I can assure you it is even much better then what he is implying! :-)
It sounds really greate!

p.s. he also sent me cc and ff. I like them. The cc is good. The ff is OK. But the gg is a class in itself!!!!

My only problem is that I don't really understand what to buy (to get the SAME strings he sent me) :shrug:

Tony, maybe you should start selling them here!? I will be your first customer!!

P.s. Thanks again and again Tony! :bowdown:

I used that oud on the New CD, and I am very happy with the sound! (p.s. I used two different ouds on the CD, one fixed and one floating bridge. Both Sukar ouds).

Have a nice day

spyblaster - 8-17-2012 at 12:43 AM

im also interested. PVF is originally for fishing, ain't it? i don't know if i can find seaguar products here in Iran. is there any alternative? other brands...?

fernandraynaud - 8-17-2012 at 01:31 AM

Thanks, Geko, I'm so happy that worked out for you. It would be interesting to try a greater variety of these PVF materials, but I suspect that a PVF monofilament would be too metallic-sounding. The double layer material sounds a lot like a wound string that's been sweetened by being played a bit, and it blends well with the DD wound course.

I too love that 0.024" on the gg. The 0.020" on the cc works for me, just a touch bright, 0.018" was sweeter but I liked the sheer power of the 0.020". Maybe I'll go back and try the 0.018" again. But this is all in a good ball-park as far as getting away from playing on nylon and then suddenly hitting the wound DD course, with an unacceptable change in timbre. PVF solves that problem. I suspect a thin wound string in the gg position would be too fragile, and why bother if PVF works?

Of course, dearly beloved, we do have the other direction, the Ameer Sanction, which is to go nylon on all 3 top courses, where the dd course uses a nylon guitar pair, like a 0.039". With a higher action the Ameer Sanction gives the percussive "Egyptian" sound. The AA course tends to be lower tension, and it's below the most resonant peak, so I think it can blend better with an adjacent nylon course than DD, making this another viable approach to the timbre discontinuity problem.

Edward Powell - 8-18-2012 at 10:20 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Yo, Eddie, what it IS!

If you look up my e-mail and send me a usable postal address, I'll drop a coupla yards

GReat!
I just sent you an email!!!

Edward Powell - 8-18-2012 at 10:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster

im also interested. PVF is originally for fishing, ain't it? i don't know if i can find seaguar products here in Iran. is there any alternative? other brands...?

the trick is just to go to a fishing store and ask for FLOROCARBON fishing line... then get the right thickness and don't worry about brand... this should be fine.

I recently did this and got a 0.35mm PVF for the top ff course and it is wonderful - - - some unknown brand of florocarbon leader.
The problem is getting the heavier guages from a fishing store.

Are there fish in Iran?

fernandraynaud - 8-19-2012 at 06:52 AM

I don't know, Edward, I think there's something to how the double layer stuff like Seaguar works. They extrude it with the inner core being hard PVF that gives it strength and there's an outer softer layer that prevents knots from slipping. That gives it a specific sound. Plain PVF sounds more metallic. Of course if you don't have a choice, any PVF is worth trying.

Edward Powell - 8-19-2012 at 08:40 AM

cool, I still have not tried to double layer stuff...
...did you receive my email?

spyblaster - 8-19-2012 at 11:25 AM

Thanxs Edward. yes there are almosts all kinds of water(salt water, fresh water, lakes, rivers,...) in Iran.
yesterday i made a trip to Tehran and browsed some shops. all available line were made in China and i didn't see anything like "double layer" on the boxes. however, I bought a 0.50mm/18.7kg (the thickest available). it's black and i bought 300 meters for about 8 bucks. which course can i use it for?

Edward Powell - 8-19-2012 at 11:53 AM

if that is regular nylon 0.5mm then if is good for the ff course (but probably a bit tight.
if that is 0.5mm PVF florocarbon then it is good for cc.

Hey, I might be coming to Iran for some gigs this winter --- hope to see you there!

Microber - 8-19-2012 at 12:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

well it is worth a try to experiment with a wound gg... I still would guess that 0.022 would be too thick and tight... probably a 0.019 would be better (?) have to get some custom strings made?

Hi Edward, and the others of course,

For your information, when I received my oud from Fadi Matta (floating bridge, 7 course, 60cm string length), the strings were Pyramid Lute.
The gg was a wound string of 0.46mm [0.018"].
I have used it during 7 months without any problem.
I have a spare set that I bought to Matthias Wagner.
The gg is also a wound string of 0.48mm [0.0189"].
The reference of this one is PY9075, Pyramid Lute Strings.

All the gauges I have given have been measured with a micrometre. Therefore, it may slightly differ from the nominal gauge.

I hope it help.

Otherwise, I also am tempted by PVF.
But buying hundred of meters and use so few, really I can't !

Robert

Edward Powell - 8-19-2012 at 12:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Microber

The gg was 0.46mm [0.018"].
Robert

that is 0.46 plain nylon or wound string?

Microber - 8-19-2012 at 01:03 PM

Oh yes sorry, it's wound string.

Edward Powell - 8-19-2012 at 06:57 PM

I definitely need to try to the PVF gg course, but I have a feeling that for this instrument the wound string will be necessary because this is not a normal oud - it has a very small body and a very heavy soundboard --- the steelstring sarod neck sounds incredibly good, but the oud neck and gg nylon in particular sounds very quiet...

Does anyone know where I can order such an 0.018 wound string, or the whole set?

thanks

spyblaster - 8-19-2012 at 10:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

if that is regular nylon 0.5mm then if is good for the ff course (but probably a bit tight.
if that is 0.5mm PVF florocarbon then it is good for cc.

Hey, I might be coming to Iran for some gigs this winter --- hope to see you there!

alright, thanx. so what for gg? 0.60mm?

fernandraynaud - 8-19-2012 at 10:40 PM

Assuming you do have PVF and not nylon, on 600mm ouds I use
0.020" = 0,52mm PVF for the cc course, and
0.024" = 0,62mm PVF for the gg course.

The gg course is great, the cc is a little tight, loud, but maybe a just a bit metallic-sounding. The 0.018" felt a little slack, so maybe one solution is to take some of the gloss off the 0.020" by pulling them through some fine steel wool? I would try that for all strings if you have plain PVF.

The dual layer PVF is a high-end material used by fishermen as a leader, where the ability to make knots that hold is very important.

Eddie, yes I got your message. 650mm scale!? I guess that with 0.028" nylon you've got about 2.7 Kg. With 0.024" PVF you'll have about 3.5 Kg. That should beef it up a bit, it's going to be about 1/2 a Kg more tension that on my 600mmm ouds.

Microber - 8-19-2012 at 11:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell

I have a feeling that for this instrument the wound string will be necessary because this is not a normal oud -
Does anyone know where I can order such an 0.018 wound string, or the whole set?

thanks

Matthias Wagner
http://music-strings.de/

Edward Powell - 8-19-2012 at 11:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Eddie, yes I got your message. 650mm scale!? I guess that with 0.028" nylon you've got about 2.7 Kg. With 0.024" PVF you'll have about 3.5 Kg. That should beef it up a bit, it's going to be about 1/2 a Kg more tension that on my 600mmm ouds.

I am sure that will sound better - it just feels that it needs to be both thinner and tighter.

I would like also to try the 0.018 wound string but I am hoping that the PVF will work because that will be MUCH cheaper and less hassle in the long run!

spyblaster - 8-20-2012 at 12:47 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Assuming you do have PVF and not nylon, on 600mm ouds I use
0.020" = 0,52mm PVF for the cc course, and
0.024" = 0,62mm PVF for the gg course.

ok, so 0.62 for gg, 0.52 for cc and 0.35 for ff? what is the reason of this big distance between cc and ff?

Edward Powell - 8-21-2012 at 11:51 AM

generally 0.37 to 0.41mm is used for PVF ff course.

I just bought some other brand of PVF 0.62 MONOFILAMENT at a fishing store here in town... cost $20 for 25m. Put them on and they sound louder and stronger but I don't feel the tone is really any better (maybe a touch worse, probably due to the monofilament hardness).

I would still like to try the seaguar 62 and also a wound 18, somehow.