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Lavta info?

bcearthtones - 8-21-2005 at 05:52 AM

Since this is my first post, I'd like to thank Mike for the great forum, it has been my portal to everything oudy for the past year. Also thanks Jameel, Dincer and Astrid, your photo essays on oud construction were a constant inspiration for me as I built my own oud.
I am an amature instrument builder and I am interested in building a Lavta next, can anyone tell me the scale length?
Is 'dada' the only common tuning?

Thanks,
Scott

P.S. here is a picture of the lute I am building for my wife

Jameel - 8-21-2005 at 08:38 AM

Welcome, Scott!

Let's see some more pics of your work.

bcearthtones - 8-22-2005 at 04:39 AM

Sure, here is some pictures of my oud

bcearthtones - 8-22-2005 at 04:40 AM

and the face...

bcearthtones - 8-22-2005 at 04:41 AM

and the back..

kasos - 8-22-2005 at 08:46 AM

Hi bcearthtones - I'm in awe of your building skills - very interesting to see the pictures. It's also nice to hear from a fellow Canadian on the site.

With respect to your question about lavta dimensions, there's a chance I may be able to help you. I've got something at home which was sold to me on E-bay as a "laouta", but which I think is probably better referred to as a lavta. It's Turkish made, has a longer neck and shallower pear shaped resonator than an oud, and has nylon tied frets fitted in partial tones, apparently for playing muqam. It also features oud-type nylon wound strings, rather than metal. If you're interested, I can take any measurements you'd like, and send them back, either as a posting or a U to U - either is fine for me. I'm eager to help, but, not being a builder myself, it would help if you could use layman's terms for what dimensions you're looking for - for instance, I'm not really sure exactly what you're looking for when you ask for "scale length" (would it be the same as string resonating length, the distance from nut to bridge?).

As to alternate tunings, the seller's info on the instrument indicated a tuning in fifths, CGDA, lowest to highest, like a cello or viola (the top three notes are coursed, and the lowest C is a single string, for a total of seven strings). I and a friend of mine in my home community, who also ordered the same type of instrument recently, have been playing it in the CGDA tuning, and it seems to work reasonably well, especially in situations where you can use the open strings. However, when you are playing in the lower positions, the stretch can be pretty wide between the first and fourth finger, so I can definitely see how a DADA might present advantages in some situations. Anyway, good luck with completing your instrument, let me know if I can help in any way. Mark in Flin Flon, MB

Jonathan - 8-22-2005 at 08:50 AM

Can you tell us what type of wood that is on the bowl of the oud? It looks great. I see there's a contrasting rib of light wood (maple?). I think it looks cool like that, but I am wondering why you chose to do that. That one light strip looks like it has a really nice, curly pattern on it.

bcearthtones - 8-22-2005 at 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
Can you tell us what type of wood that is on the bowl of the oud? It looks great. I see there's a contrasting rib of light wood (maple?). I think it looks cool like that, but I am wondering why you chose to do that. That one light strip looks like it has a really nice, curly pattern on it.

The back is Honduros Mahogany with walnut trim. Your correct, the stripes are curly maple (there are actually 2 there), I was going to put 4 in, to play with the figured maple a bit. It turned out to be very difficult for me to bend and shape, so I skipped the last 2. The little piece of blackwood on the tail is cocobolo.

Mark, it sounds like you have what I'm after. The measure ment I need is the vibrating stringlength from the edge of the nut to the bridge, if you could post that I think it would get me on my way. Is your instrument about 31.5 inces long? About 5 or so deep?
Any chance of seeing a picture?

Thanks,
Scott

kasos - 8-22-2005 at 03:47 PM

Hi Scott

Glad to be able to help you with the measurements. I can confirm that my instrument has the same length and depth as the dimensions you quoted. It's about 12" wide at the soundboard's widest point. The resonating string length is 25".

It'll take me a little while to get pictures in. Hopefully, I'll be able to manage this in a couple of days.

All the best, Mark

bcearthtones - 8-23-2005 at 05:07 AM

Thank alot for the measurements Mark, I really appreciate that!

Regards,
Scott

al-Halabi - 8-23-2005 at 10:02 AM

I have two Turkish lavtas. One is a replica of an antique lavta, with a vibrating string length of 28 inches and depth of 5.5 inches. The second, which is more in line with the shorter scale lavtas made today, has a vibrating string length of 23.5 inches and a depth of 6.5 inches.

bcearthtones - 8-24-2005 at 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by al-Halabi
I have two Turkish lavtas. One is a replica of an antique lavta, with a vibrating string length of 28 inches and depth of 5.5 inches. The second, which is more in line with the shorter scale lavtas made today, has a vibrating string length of 23.5 inches and a depth of 6.5 inches.

Thanks al-Halabi! I'm suprised to see the antique with such a long scale!
I'm curious, is it held like the oud, or do you hold the neck higher to made chords easier?

Regards,
Scott

al-Halabi - 8-24-2005 at 06:34 AM

The older lavtas made a hundred years ago or so had longer scales of around 28 inches. I recently saw one with similar proportions on display in a museum of musical instruments in Athens (it was made by the famous luthier Manol in Istanbul in the early twentieth century). You can hold the longer instrument like an oud, even though playing it is a bit more challenging than playing the shorter scale versions common today. Although fretted, the lavta is not intended or suited for playing chords. The whole tones include frets for a smaller half tone (4 commas), a larger half tone (5 commas), and two additional microtones (approximately 6.5 commas and 8 commas), in addition to a fret for a full tone interval (9 commas). It gets pretty crowded on the fingerboard.

kasos - 8-24-2005 at 09:16 AM

I can't say that I've got years of experience with the Lavta, or an extensive sense of tradition that I've inherited, through birth or person to person contact. However, I did have to work fairly intensively over a six month period to try to integrate the instrument (and its players) into a performing ensemble. I would have to concur with Al-Halabi - the lavta is much more naturally suited to melodic playing than for chording, and that's predominantly the way I've been using it. Basically, if you play the same sorts of things on the lavta you would play on an oud, you'll be OK, both in terms of ease of playing, and in terms of fitting within the tradition, such as I gather it is.

All of that being said, I also do some mandolin playing, and I've experimented with adapting mandolin-style three note chords (by this, I mean chords using three courses, or two courses and the lower string) on the lavta. As Al-Halabi rightly points out, the microtonal frets do make finding chords much more complicated than on a guitar or mandolin, but, as long as you allow yourself extra practice, or choose pieces and tempos that give you time to reposition yourself, it's physically possible to do many of the fingerings.

The real issue is sound quality. A friend of mine who's much handier with such things than me managed to work out four note forms of many chords, and brought the changes up to performance tempo - then we tried fitting the result into the ensemble's playing. However, as much as I had to respect my friend's ingenuity and technical prowess, the sound outcome simply wasn't worth the trouble, and we ultimately had him switch to a different instrument to get the chording in.

I think the source of the trouble is that the lavta's strings are much looser than your typical steel string guitar (many guitarists I have shown the instrument to describe it as a "rubber" sort of sound), and pitch bend seems to undermine and overtake the harmony if more than three notes are played at once. It seems to be less of a problem for three note chords, which can still be relatively pleasant to listen to. I find I can, when playing solo, do fairly satisfactory pseudo-Spanish or Renaissance-lute stylings with these three note forms, especially when interspersed with melodic playing. I recognize that this begs the question of "why bother doing it on the lavta", when it might be easier or more traditional to do such material on the classical guitar or Renaissance lute. I don't really have an answer to this (partly due to the fact that I don't yet own either a classical guitar or Renaissance lute, and am therfore at a disadvantage in making direct comparisons). I just want to note that it seems possible to do some chording on the lavta, albeit on a limited basis, if you're still interested in going there.

All the best with your building project, Mark

al-Halabi - 8-24-2005 at 10:20 AM

Mark,

You are right, you can definitely produce some pleasant chords on the lavta, but from my experience they are limited to ones that employ primarily open strings or non-microtonal fingered notes. The instrument was traditionally used in performances of Turkish dance airs (a genre called kocekce), and the performance technique included rapid strumming on one or more strings to provide a rhythmic-percussive effect. I played the instrument on a number of songs in concerts of Sephardi music and it provided a deep timbre as well as some strumming possibilities on chords that I think were effective. With proper transposition and tuning to take advantage of open strings for chords, I have found that the lavta can work for playing some Renaissance and medieval pieces (for example, Branle Gay by Besard, Lamento di Tristano, La Rotta, and some estampies). It's an interesting instrument to experiment with, although there is only so much you can force it to do with music for which it is not fully suited.

kasos - 8-24-2005 at 11:17 AM

Dear Al-Halabi,

You are right on in your comments. Thanks for suggesting a few specific examples of pieces that could be adapted for lavta, using the limited chording which can be practical on that instrument. I have a number of medieval pieces at home (back from my college days - I took part in a medieval Collegium ensemble), which I'm experimenting with, in much the same way you describe. I'm not sure how embarrassed I should be to admit to this, but I'm also (partly out of desperation, given the lack of anything better for the time being) experimenting with the oud and lavta as a replacement for the pipa (the largest of the Chinese lutes, and an apparent cousin of the oud) when attempting to accompany Chinese pieces on the erhu fiddle I recently acquired (the erhu is much like the arabic rebaba spike fiddle, the erhu's resonator being wooden rather than gourd or coconut, with a snakeskin resonating parchment). By contrast to the oud, there seems to be a relatively strong tradition of chording on the pipa (check out Paul's recent posting on this site for more on this, he's got a really neat pipa video there). I suppose that's one of my main motivations in the chordal direction at the moment - something that might too easily be cured by actually getting a pipa, or maybe a guzheng (chinese zither)... So many instruments, so little time (and money...)

As an aside, I wonder if you have any suggestions about recordings prominently featuring the lavta? Would you have anything you can post?

Mark

al-Halabi - 8-24-2005 at 12:21 PM

Mark,

As far as I know, there are no recent recordings prominently featuring the lavta. I have been going to Turkey regularly for many years and have bought a lot of recordings there, but I have not been able to find any featuring the lavta. I have attended concerts in Istanbul and Ankara which included very fine lavta players. I wish even one of them issued a recording that features the instrument and its special qualities. I have some ensemble recordings which include the lavta, but the instrument is rather lost in the mix. Tanburi Cemil Bey played the lavta in addition to the tanbur, kemence, and cello. Traditional Crossroads has issued his recorded pieces from the early 20th century, and they include at least one solo taksim on the lavta. I have one non-commercial recording in which Ihsan Ozgen, one of Turkey's great musicians, plays a couple of pieces on the lavta. Unfortunately it's on cassette, so not easy to post.

kasos - 8-24-2005 at 07:53 PM

Dear Al-Halabi

Thanks so much for the leads on recordings. I'll see if I can track down some of the older ones you listed. I'm very jealous of your having the Ozgen tape - I know he's a pretty major figure, as much for his teaching and ensemble leading as for his playing on several different instruments - I'm most familiar with his recordings on the kemence, which were my introduction to that instrument...

By the way, just in case you are in a position to do so, would you consider recording and posting some samples of your own playing on the lavtas you own?

Mark

bcearthtones - 8-25-2005 at 06:02 AM

Thanks for the clearification on chords (and those leads too), I do want to learn it properly, and it is the expressiveness of middle eastern melodies that drew me to the oud in the first place (I'm coming from a 5 string fretless bass background)

I hear what your saying about so many instruments, so little time, I've got a Renaissance guitar on the drawing board too! I'm very interested in strings from all over the world (though the middle east has taken all my attention lately). Mark it sounds like your having a lot of fun with different world music contexts.

kasos - 8-25-2005 at 07:43 AM

Look forward to pictures of your progress on the new Lavta, Scott...By the way, is your wife already a musician, or will the lute you are building be for her maiden voyage as an instrumentalist?

Mark

mavrothis - 8-25-2005 at 05:20 PM

Hi guys,

Very cool discussion. Have any of you heard of the album "Letter from Istanbul" featuring Derya Turkan and Sokratis Sinopoulos? Sokratis plays a good bit of beautiful lavta on the album, even some taksim. Lavta is really making a comeback in Greece, along with all the other classical instruments.

Let me know if you find this CD, I really enjoy it.

Take care,

mavrothis

al-Halabi - 8-25-2005 at 07:17 PM

Hi Mavrothis,

Thanks for the reference to this album. I was not aware of it, and will definitely look for a copy.

The revival of interest in the traditional instruments in Greece that you mention is something that I was pleased to observe when I visited the country recently. The 'Oriental music' that for a period was shunned or suppressed for ideological and political reasons is regaining fans and respectability. Turkey next door helps to provide for Greeks interested in the old shared music a source for instruments, recordings, joint projects, and a generally healthy reconnection with a legacy they were once part of. This is a positive development. I saw a group performing Christmas songs outside the Kapnikarea Church in Athens, and it included an oud player. There is hope.

David Parfitt - 8-26-2005 at 04:30 AM

Hi

I see that the album is available from the Golden Horn Records website:

Letter from Istanbul

Best wishes

David

bcearthtones - 8-26-2005 at 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kasos
Look forward to pictures of your progress on the new Lavta, Scott...By the way, is your wife already a musician, or will the lute you are building be for her maiden voyage as an instrumentalist?

Mark

She has 12 years of classical piano (she has not played it for a while though). She is looking forward to a fresh instrument to explore.

bcearthtones - 8-26-2005 at 08:11 AM

I forgot to mention, she makes and plays cedar flutes too.

kasos - 8-26-2005 at 08:21 AM

Hi - As requested earlier, here's a picture of my lavta, with a few friends, as it were, that came along for the ride... The lavta is in the centre, of course. On the extreme left is the Cretan Lyra, then a chinese erhu, a thai rebab on the immediate right of the lavta, a morin ghuur (Mongolian) on the far right, and a kemence in front. All of these are bowed instruments except for the lavta (my early background is in classical piano and violin and I guess it shows...).

I've got a recording of this particular lavta, mixed in fairly prominently with a band and vocalist. I've still got a few technical issues to resolve, but hopefully I'll be able to put it up within a week or so. Speaking of which, this is my first picture post, and I'm not feeling really confident about whether it will work - please let me know (and give advice..) if it doesn't.

Mark

bcearthtones - 8-27-2005 at 06:27 AM

Thanks for the photo Mark! Really interesting to see it with those exotic instruments.
Could I get one more measurement off you? That is the distance between the nut and the neck/body joint (following a striaght line through the middle, not the tapered edge).

Thanks again,
Scott

al-Halabi - 8-27-2005 at 07:38 AM

Scott,

Just wanted to mention that the lavta's fingerboard is a full octave, and therefore the neck/body joint will be at the exact middle point of the vibrating string. So if you know what vibrating string length you want the instrument to have, the distance between the nut and neck/body joint would be half of that scale length.

Good luck with your project.

kasos - 8-27-2005 at 03:13 PM

Hi. Scott, it's 11 and 1/2 inches from nut to the highest fret (when playing, ie., closest to the bridge) then another little bit, between 1/8 and 1/4 inch to where the resonator/body begins.

Though it's close, this measurement falls short of the 12.5 inches you'd expect by dividing the resonating string length by half, as Al Halabi suggests. However, though they didn't follow it exactly, whoever built this instrument was doubtlessly aware of the custom of including a playable octave through the proportions in question. The octave occurs just above (toward the pegs) the lowest point of the dark "v" you can see near the juncture of fingerboard and body, at exactly 12.5" down. The tip of the "v" is at about 12 3/4 " from the nut. The "v" is pretty clearly intended as a reference mark for the octave (I've been finding the octave by ear, and hadn't really paid attention to this until now).

Though in theory it would be easier to play if the neck were a little longer, proportionately to the body, I haven't felt that there's been an issue reaching the octave using the present dimensions, and I've been able to play notes even farther up the soundboard. I think the instrument builder may have been trading off comfort on reaching the octave in order to get just a little more manageable stretch between fingers when playing closer to the nut. As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, that stretch sometimes gets uncomfortably large, at least for me, in passages when you can't use an open string, in the CGDA tuning. I would think that using a DADA tuning reduces the problem, but wouldn't get rid of it entirely. The compromise in my instrument allows a shorter neck while maintaining string length (I'm not an acoustician, but my impression is that, in general, longer string length usually translates to a fuller sound).

If your wife is going to be the primary player, and she has smallish hands like my wife does, that might be a rationale for going with a relatively short neck version.... Anyway, good luck, I can't wait to see the finished product....

I know this message is pretty long already, but one last thing - I've got myself up to where I think I can post a sound clip of the instrument in question. This is an extract from a live performance of Three Brides for Kasos, a play our choir/theatre group put on in June and July this year. Assuming the post works (I'm bolder now that the photo worked yesterday) you should be able to hear the Lavta pretty clearly at the beginning, and in the up-tempo section. It's being played in this case by Theo Kyriakopoulos (I'm on piano). The play is set in the Greek islands, and the song, a traditional one in Greek, roughly translates as "I need two hearts". The bowed strings you can hear are a combination of Cretan lyra (see the picture above) played by my wife Crystal, and conventional violin, played by Debbbie Smythe of the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra (our hired gun, for this show). The singer is Susan Lethbridge, a pop and folk singer from my home town of Flin Flon, with no Greek background prior to doing this show. Anyway, I'm really proud of our group, who put their heart and soul into this, so I hope you'll forgive me running on.... Mark

kasos - 8-27-2005 at 03:23 PM

Well, guess my luck ran out. I'll try posting the sound file again...

kasos - 8-27-2005 at 03:28 PM

Help!.... File's probably too big. Maybe Mike or one of the other site administrators can suggest something - my regular e-mail is mkolt@city.flinflon.mb.ca. Thanks.... Mark

Turkish Lavta

Hank Levin - 8-27-2005 at 03:30 PM

Udi Necati Çelik keeps two lavtas in his home, and took one down and played it for me a few years ago. He was better than any of the lavta players that I've ever seen, some of whom occasionally tour with Turkish ensembles to the U.S. He was very modest about it, and brushed off my complements, insisting that he is just "playing ud on lavta." However, in fact he uses different technique on lavta, which has frets and is tuned in 5ths. (I have seen other lavta players tune it in 4ths to facilitate ud fingerings and an easier reach, but Necati is quite comfortable in 5ths.) It has a different resonance and a different feeling from ud, and Necati really gets into it. His familiarity with frets may come from playing saz as he grew up---he's still an excellent saz player.

When I protested that he certainly did not sound like he was playing ud, but seemed to be able to tune into the unique energy of the lavta, he mused that perhaps he could practice for a couple of weeks and do a recording. However, we never spoke of it again, and I'm sure he'd rather just forget about it.

The performer playing with Devya Turkan in Letter from Istanbul is Greek. Is he playing Turkish lavta or the big Greek metal-strung lavta?

mavrothis - 8-27-2005 at 10:26 PM

Hi Hank,

Sokratis Sinopoulos is playing lavta (not the Greek steel string laouto) and kemence on this album. Those are his main instruments (kemence and various folk lyras being his first I think, but he is very accomplished on the lavta as well).

Hope you guys enjoy the album, it's a compilation of pieces that are shared by the Turkish and Greek traditions. It is a very big deal for me and for many others that this revival is getting stronger and stronger in Greece. The oud and kanun seminars organized by Ross Daly in Crete were packed when I was there, and everyone left very inspired and I'd say spiritually uplifted. Unfortunately, the Greeks in the US are less atuned to these changes, but in time I hope they come around as well.

Take care,

mavrothis

Peyman - 8-28-2005 at 08:00 AM

I'd like to add to this discussion by mentioning that there is a new instrument (since 2002) being introduced in Iran by Maestro Alizadeh, who has been a prominent face in Iranian music since the 1970s.
The instrument is called "Sallaneh." It has an oud-like body (much samller) and a fretted long neck that resembles a persian Tar. It has 12 strings, 6 are the main strings and 6 of are sympathetic.
The reason for building it, Alizadeh says, is that most plucked persian instruments seem incomplete and lack depth when it comes to having bass sounds and he hopes to add an original solution to this problem, an instrument with greater octave span.
In my opinion, Sallaneh sounds like a weak turkish Tanbur or a Divan (somewhat nasal). Personally I don't like the way it sounds, as much as I like the sound of a turkish tanbur. Many people share my opinion as well. One obvious reason is that fingernails are used to play and I think a plectrum would make a bigger difference specially on bass strings.
Alizadeh has also been using 2 other newly invented instruments called "Shurangiz" and "Gharibaneh." Shurangiz is a basically a 6-string cogur (much like a baglama) but played with a fingernail and Gharibaneh is the same but the soundboard is a combination of mulberry and lamb skin, still played with fingernails.
Here are 2 pics of Sallaneh:

bcearthtones - 8-29-2005 at 05:11 AM

Thanks for the measurements, Al-Halabi and Mark.
Al-Halabi, does the ancient replica also have a full octave? (I thiink I'm going to go with a contemporary model, but I'm curious)

Mark, I hope to have her learn some Lavta, but it's going to be mine, and I have fairly large hands. (after a time with her lute, I imagine she will want to play it too). You right about longer scale/ fuller sound. A longer scale (same gauge, same tuning, higher tension) will have more sustain, volume and attack. I hope you can get the soundfile working, I really look forward to hearing it. By the way, do you every play outside of Manitoba?

Thanks for the info on the Sallaneh Peyman! I scour the internet looking to learn about unusual instruments and this on is totally new to me!

Regards,
Scott

PS I'll start a new thread when the build is underway, it is going to take a couple more months to finish the lute though.

al-Halabi - 8-29-2005 at 06:10 AM

Scott,

You are welcome. My larger lavta with the 28" scale length does have a fingerboard with a full octave.
The highest fret, which produces the octave, sits exactly on the neck/body joint (14" from the nut or the bridge). It's the same with my other lavta. So unlike Mark's lavta, the neck/body joint in my two instruments is right at the middle point of the resonating string.

I should say that the larger lavta has a beautiful deep timbre that comes in part from the longer scale.

kasos - 8-29-2005 at 10:30 AM

Hi Scott,

All the best to your wife, I hope she really enjoys the lute, and lavta, too, in time....She sounds like a neat lady...

You asked about whether I perform out of province - yeah, it happens all the time, but I have a bit of an unfair advantage in that respect, because my home town of Flin Flon is situated right on the border of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. There are literally streets that are in Manitoba on one side, and Saskatchewan on the other, and a ball diamond where, due to one province having daylight savings time and the other not, you can hit a foul ball and have it land, technically, an hour later than when it was hit....

Seriously though, I would love to tour more, but it happens fairly rarely, and when it does, it's a pretty big deal, given the size of group my wife and I are dealing with. It started out as a conventional choir, and it still does that sort of thing - when it does, Crystal conducts, and I accompany on the piano. We've been able to participate in a number of massed choir concerts in other cities - for example, we're doing Beethoven's Ninth with the Saskatoon Symphony and a number of other Saskatoon choirs this coming March, 2006. This year, we toured a musical theatre production for the first time, taking our Greek themed play, Three Brides for Kasos, to the Winnipeg Fringe for a ten day run. We did OK, second highest attendance out of the 136 acts at the Fringe, but even so, we relied on a pretty massive private donation to make ends meet, what with a cast of 22 onstage and 8 musicians....You get the picture, to make something work on that scale, the stars really have to be aligned right....We'd like to take the play to Toronto, where I understand the Greek community is 200,000 +, but I don't have any meaningful contacts there yet, and there's a lot of work to be done before we could pull something like that off.

Do you tour yourself? If so, please consider sending me a package of what you do... Among other things one does to further one's musical interests in a smaller community, Crystal and I have worked extensively with our local Arts Council to bring in musical acts....Even if you don't tour professionally, you're welcome anytime to Flin Flon as a guest for a jam....It's a nice, resort-like place in summer, and we've got great cross-country ski-ing in winter, fishing, that sort of stuff....No mountains, but lots of trees and lakes and small rocky hills (no hint of the great plains here). Let me know about what part of British Columbia you're in, sometime...

Take care, Mark

Peyman - 8-29-2005 at 12:38 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the info on the Sallaneh Peyman! I scour the internet looking to learn about unusual instruments and this on is totally new to me!

You're welcome. The reason why I posted this is because of the fact that the Sallaneh looks very much like a Lavta. As I said before, it's supposedly based on pictures of a Barbat.

Mike - 8-29-2005 at 02:08 PM

Hey guys,
Nice thread, and nice work Scott on your instruments. Your wife is a lucky lady.

Here's a file Kasos sent to put up in this thread.
Take care,
Mike

bcearthtones - 8-30-2005 at 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kasos
Do you tour yourself? If so, please consider sending me a package of what you do... Among other things one does to further one's musical interests in a smaller community, Crystal and I have worked extensively with our local Arts Council to bring in musical acts....Even if you don't tour professionally, you're welcome anytime to Flin Flon as a guest for a jam....It's a nice, resort-like place in summer, and we've got great cross-country ski-ing in winter, fishing, that sort of stuff....No mountains, but lots of trees and lakes and small rocky hills (no hint of the great plains here). Let me know about what part of British Columbia you're in, sometime...

I have not been in a band for a few years now. I'm in Port Alberni, it's on Vancouver Island.

I see that Mike has posted the file you mention, yet I don't see a link to the file, am I the only one?

Mike - 8-30-2005 at 05:31 AM

oops...let's try that one more time. :shrug:

bcearthtones - 8-30-2005 at 06:06 AM

Great piece Mark! Is the lavta the only stringed instument present in the begining of the song? My ears are new to quarter tones, am I imagining things, or did the piano play a few early in the piece? Was that Greek she was singing?

kasos - 8-30-2005 at 08:25 AM

Hi Scott

Yes, she's singing in Greek - the play this number is drawn from is set in the Greek Islands (Kasos, a small Island near Crete, to be specific). The story line involves a young man who, by misadventure, finds himself engaged to two women on the same day (hence, "...two hearts...", the subject of the song, which, by the way, predates the play itself).

As to clarifications on the instrumentation you're hearing, Lavta is playing the tune, and is up front in the mix, especially at the outset, and at the very end, although it's also prominent in the up-tempo section. The only other plucked string you'll hear distinctly is guitar, which is chording (mostly droning, at first). Bowed strings include both the traditional Cretan lyra (played on the lap), and the conventional western European violin (shoulder held, but which also has a history of being used in Greek folk music). The piano isn't actually doing any quarter tones here - although I'm very fond of eastern-influenced modal playing, and this tune reflects that, in this case I was using an electronic instrument that simply doesn't do microtones without special intervention, and I didn't use the pitch bend feature. On the other hand, it's stylistically appropriate for the bowed strings to scoop and slide around a bit, especially the lyra - it may be that as a result you're getting a bit of a sense of mutable pitch from the ensemble as a whole - however, I think this is pretty consistent with the sort of traditional sound we were going for, and it has its own particular charm...I'm glad you enjoyed the piece... All the best, Mark

bcearthtones - 9-1-2005 at 05:19 AM

Al-Halabi, could you please tell me the lowest note on each of your lavtas?
Thanks,
Scott

al-Halabi - 9-1-2005 at 05:47 AM

It's D on the smaller instrument and C on the longer one.

oudplayer - 9-1-2005 at 06:45 AM

hey
nice song
thx sammy

kasos - 9-1-2005 at 07:37 AM

Thanks, sammy. I'll pass it on to the singer & other players. Take care...Mark

bcearthtones - 9-2-2005 at 05:30 AM

Thanks again Al-Halabi !