Having read much of the discussion about the merits or drawbacks of various ouds, it strikes me that the level of discourse is often anecdotal and
generalized. Debating the relative merits of ouds built by Najarian, Keyvelos, Fadel or any other builders would be more effective if those who have
played instruments by several makers could be more specific. How do we know, for instance, that Najarian?s ouds are great or not so great if we?ve
never had the opportunity to compare on of his creations to a Kyvelos? And what about the oud?s components? Cedar top? Spruce top? Which species of
spruce? What about the bowl tone woods? What?s the difference? Tone? Volume? Finish? Playing ease? Has anyone compared ouds by these builders? Is the
person posting a competent player? I?ve had a symphony violinist play one of my fiddles and reveal tonal qualities I never knew my instrument
possessed.
In the larger world of musical instruments, the oud occupies a tiny niche that is still in many ways backwards and under-developed because compared
to the guitar and the violin there just isn?t a large market for it. I think it could be beneficial to all of us if we could bring more empirical
information and dispassionate exchanges to the discussion. We all love ouds and want the best we can afford. How do we know what we?re getting when
we order an instrument from a builder who might live halfway around the globe? More importantly, how do learn the questions we should ask?
How do we best improve our knowledge of oud construction and pricing? By being honest about the merits or drawbacks of our own instruments rather
than being defensive, and by asking specific questions of each other and the builders themselves. While various luthiers like Dimitris have web sites
with quality photos and good sound samples, I don?t think they offer sufficient information. Why should I buy a Syrian oud rather than an Egyptian
model? Is it the tone, or is the difference aesthetic? Is the Turkish oud a Manol copy or is it built on another model? Does a Manol copy cost more?
Why? What about the bowl wood and the specific tones tonal qualities of each species? Am I supposed to know these things already? Who can I contact as
a reference? By sharing useful, specific information with each other we might also cause the builders themselves to offer further assistance essential
to our selection of instruments. Spiros has time to visit and post on oud sites, but despite his claim that he?ll answer all questions he never
responded to the last three I asked him. This is disappointing.
Dear friend Al
spyros mesogeia - 2-1-2004 at 02:27 PM
First of all,the diference between the Syrian type and the Egyptian type is on the shape of the body!!!!!!Also the sound of the Syrian type is a
little bit brighter than the Egyptian type[diferences on the braces,and the bridge].
Above our Turkish type that we do,we make and Manol copies,the diference is on the shape,the ribs,the matterials,and the sound too,based on the braces
of the Manol[influences].Yes a copy of Manol has other price,biger.
Because we use very expensive woods and inlay materials and it takes alot of work.
As about my person,dear friend I think that untill now .after at least 400 emails since we did the site ,you are the first person that he is not
''satisfited'' with my answers,but do me a favour,next time be more specific of what do you want to ask....and I will do my best to respond you.....
Regards and respect
P.S.Also my friend about the woods and the tone qualities,you can tell us HOW WOULD YOU LIKE to be your oud[the sound and the aspect],and we will
make you a combination-offer of woods
I still consider you as a positive thinking person,and on the same side with me,and please next time don't hesitate to ask me and be more
specific
also..........
spyros mesogeia - 2-1-2004 at 02:37 PM
.....and ofcourse we are open to any sugestions that you have ....
You see we are not enemies with the other oudmakers...we have something in comon,we do our best to make better and better instruments,I am sure that
every person ho gives his soul to an instrument,has the right to be respectable from all of us that we only play the oud....
We like the discusions about any improvement of the instument....we only serv this instument,we don't own it ....If you know what I mean....
RegardsAl Billings - 2-1-2004 at 02:56 PM
Spyros, I asked you those very questions and you never replied. Thanks for posting ithe answers now. And I still think that some basic tonal
descriptions of your various ouds and the tonewoods you offer would be a useful improvement to your we site. Many guitar makers offer this information
on their web sites and it helps prospective buyers considerably. I'm still consuded about on thing: it seems as though the only Manol copy you
offer is very fancy and decorative. Is it not possible to construct a Manol copy out of simple, high quality woods and Manol bracing, but without the
tusk and other ornamentation?
Ofcourse
spyros mesogeia - 2-1-2004 at 03:05 PM
Dear friend Alan,
Yes we make the Manol copy and without the tusk and other ornamentation ,but the price is higher than our models....
We will put some fotos of my own Manol copy in a few weeks,and you will see the diferences.....
But I personally like my copy of Manol as it is,with the decoration and the marquetrys.....I just love it like that....is something more specific,and
much more beautifull on the aspect
Regardsmavrothis - 2-1-2004 at 08:21 PM
Hi Mr. Billings. I'm a friend of Spyros Koliavasilis and Dimitris Rapakousios, and helped with building Dimitris' website. Dimitris is
very talented in every aspect of oud building, from choosing quality woods, his bracing, and decoration, though he personally prefers simple
instruments, just as Kyvelos and Najarian. The ouds by Fadel I've seen have all been without any extravagant inlay work, so I assume Mr. Fadel
also prefers 'simple' instruments.
You asked in your first post how do you know what woods are used by Najarian for example, or by another maker. The answer to that is, you ask the
maker. There's no way they can't tell you that. Sorry if your questions for Dimitris weren't answered right away.
I've played instruments by both Najarian and Kyvelos, and they were very different. Both are very good, but different sounds completely, and
it's true not just comparing maker to maker, but from one oud to another by the same maker. And this is not just by chance, but often
manipulated by a master maker to the specifications of the customer, and/or their own preference.
It's interesting that now with the internet it's almost a problem that we have so many choices, and of course, Kyvelos, Najarian, Dimitris,
and Fadel are not the only ones making great ouds. So what do we do?
I think you're right to ask for more information pertaining to the relationship between wood types and sound, but the fact is that the most
important aspect in tone and projection is in the soundboard and its bracing. The bowl woods can add extra 'coloring' to the top's
main contribution to tone and projection.
So I think what you need to do when you know you want an oud, is to know how you want it to sound. Tell the maker, and if he says "Yeah, no
problem," ask for the details. "How do you know to make this oud bassy, or how do you know how to make this a more treble/clear toned
oud?"
As for playability, if you know what you want as far as action, neck width, etc...you should order those exact specifications. I doubt there is a
maker who would not follow your instructions in that department.
Anyway, I'm sorry for such a long reply. So you know we've been planning on improving Dimitris Rapakousios' site even more, and that
should happen in the next month or so. Thanks for your suggestions.
Mavrothisnadir - 2-3-2004 at 01:19 AM
my neighbor is making and his oud soundboard out of really thin plywood...
would this affect the sound of the oud more or the actual quality?
Dear friend Nadir
spyros mesogeia - 2-3-2004 at 08:21 AM
Dear friend Nadir,
Usually the wood that I personally prefer is the spruce.....
I believe that is the best wood for a soundboard....
And the cedar is very good also,but I prefer the spruce
Regards nadir - 2-3-2004 at 08:26 AM
thanks spyros!! spyros mesogeia - 2-3-2004 at 08:37 AM
You are welcome brother
Regardsnadir - 2-3-2004 at 12:28 PM
is cherry wood frequently used to make ouds? it is the second best wood that they use in furniture (mahogony being the best) and from what i know,
good cherry wood is supposed to be heavy; its also supposed to last you a long time...
plywood
Brian Prunka - 2-3-2004 at 01:59 PM
Plywood is terrible for a soundboard.
A plywood soundboard will have a dull sound and project poorly, because the criss-crossed layers of wood cut of most of the vibrations from the
strings.
Spyros is right, the best wood for the soundboard is spruce.nadir - 2-3-2004 at 02:11 PM
thanks brian, hopefully i can sabotage the oud he has and justify why there is a crumpled mess in his backyard lol. spyros mesogeia - 2-3-2004 at 03:10 PM
hehehehehehee....
Man this is not good......
Don't be that evil
hehehehehehehehe
The walnut is a very good wood for oud,and not that expensive.....
Regards
Oud Quality
Al Billings - 2-3-2004 at 04:35 PM
Brian, I wouldn't commission a plywood oud or guitar, but back in the early 1970's the Japanese developed some great laminates. You'll
find them on certain high-end Ibanez, and the Epiphone steel string 575 series, and they're somewhat rare compared to the junk still around from
that period. I've gotten a number of them for beginners and players who need a cheap travel guitar. They can sound good enough that I once fooled
two vintage guitar dealers and a former Collings employee into thinking that a plywood jumbo was built from solid woods. You never know.spyros mesogeia - 2-3-2004 at 05:02 PM
I don't think that a laminated made oud will give me the sound of a Pallisander - wallnut oud....with a good aged spruce for a soundboard
But,we are always free to choose....personally I prefer for an oud the best quality wood possible....because only that way I will be sure that I can
build a strong and quality sound instrument....ofcourse the builder[maker] has to know the art of making ouds.....this is a perfect combination for
me....I don't know about the quitars,but for the ouds,is totally diferent,that is what I personally think....
Regards to all
plywood
Brian Prunka - 2-4-2004 at 11:54 AM
Al, thanks for the tip . . . I haven't encountered those instruments myself, although the I've tried some nice laminate ibanez jazz boxes
from the 70s. I think steel-string guitars are a very different proposition than the oud, though.
Plywood can work okay on steel string guitars, probably because the higher tension of the steel strings makes the guitar louder to begin with. And a
really well-made laminate instrument can certainly sound better than a poorly-made solid wood instrument, especially if the laminate itself is made
from good woods.
Have you encountered nylon-string laminate guitars that are comparable to solid wood instruments? My experience is that these are much less sucessful
that their steel-string counterparts.
The primary advantages of plywood are that it's very strong--far stronger than solid wood of comparable thickness--and that it is usually
considerably less expensive. So Spyros, a plywood oud would probably be quite strong (of course a lot still depends on the builder, but I'm
assuming a good builder here).
Oud Quality
Al Billings - 2-4-2004 at 01:04 PM
Brian, I've played a few laminate classicals that sounded passable or better, again, Japanese, but there's a cut-off point beyond which
plywood isn't going to work for that style of guitar. I'm not advocating plywood ouds here, just sticking up for a building material that,
while not the most desirable, has had its uses and applications and has occasionally out-performed our expectations of it. But then again, I like old
plywood archtops, bakelite banjos and the cumbus, so I might be a little too plebian for everyone's taste!
Oud Quality
Al Billings - 2-4-2004 at 01:14 PM
Lest I leave the wrong impression, my ouds aren't plywood! I have a Najarian Turkish in Celik's low B tuning, which turns a Turkish oud into
a SAC bomber, and a very nice, if somewhat over-decorated Egyptian oud. I plan on buying one or two new ouds next fall, hopefully from Dimitris. And
most of my "serious" acoustic guitars are all hand-made solid wood guitars.Brian Prunka - 2-4-2004 at 01:18 PM
Al, I totally agree with you--I'm not some anti-plywood crusader
It certainly can be adequate, and as you said, sometimes is much better than one would expect. Also, making plywood instruments has put instruments
in the hands of people who otherwise might not have been able to afford them, and I think that's definitely a good thing.
I was just somewhat horrified at the thought that someone would go through all the work of building an oud, and use plywood for the top . . .
By the way, it seems like a lot of people here are building ouds. It's something I'd like to try someday, but a Brooklyn apartment is not
exactly conducive to woodworking
Oud Quality
Al Billings - 2-4-2004 at 01:39 PM
Actually, I've seen a few plywood-topped ouds, with shell-covered backs. Bad idea.You could get more tone and volume out of a cigar box banjo.spyros mesogeia - 2-4-2004 at 05:38 PM
Dear friends,
Maybe plywood is good,but I believe that we can't compare the pallisander,the maple,the wallnut,and the padouk with that,but as you say it is a
solution,not the best one...
Regards and respectAdel - 2-5-2004 at 11:15 AM
Hi Al Billings,
You have to know few things before you buy an oud.
what sound are you looking for? Warm sound or bright sound, loud or average
How much is your budget?
the string length
How good you want your oud to be?
Then you may ask a maker to make you an oud or you buy an oud which you see and like.
No oud maker will be able to guarantee you the sound of your oud, if he or she can get 40_70% of the sound, this will be great.
Another thing, we have oud makers who are making Nahats copy, these ouds sells in Europe for 5.000 Euro, but every time an oud maker present me one of
these copies, I ask him/her, where is the original?
I rather spend 5.000 Euro on an original authentic oud than a copy, no matter how good these makers are, the value of their ouds will never ever have
the same value as the origina.
Good luck,
AdelRonny Andersson - 2-5-2004 at 12:27 PM
I believe western oud makers many times they are lacking lot of knowledge since they are not belonging to any certain school of oud making. Nothing
wrong to copy instrument if one have authentic sources but that is not always the case as Adel pointed out. Also both makers and musician need to be
more aware about the ouds history and that some admired ouds actually were not made for our modern string or tunings. Oud makers and musicians have
lot of learn from the ¨ early music movement¨.nadir - 2-5-2004 at 01:04 PM
isnt cedar wood better than all other woods for the soundboard though? what about rosewood?
how do these woods compare with pallisander spyros??
thanks in advance!!
Oud Quality
Al Billings - 2-5-2004 at 01:35 PM
Adel, thanks for your opinion. I've gotten a lot of advice about oud selection. In fact, I've been buying and playing handmade instuments
for over 30 years, and I know and communicate with some great builders. Here's what I think about the topic of oud choice.
I believe that in a general sense, instrument selection involves the same dynamics regardless of the instrument--in the buying process, it's all
the same. These days, it all seems to boil down to the buyer's needs and the builder's willingness to satisfy the them. Or does it? I
prefer dealing with builders who have strong opinions and direction, and who have a powerful sense of what they do best. I like builders who offer
specific models in specific ranges, and who offer options within those ranges.
It's not possible for a luthier to claim that every instrument he or she builds represents their gifts in its best light. Some models are always
a little more successful than others and I like luthiers who tell me what works best for them and then let me make a choice. This is not to say that I
won't custom-order--I've done a lot that as well, but it seems as though the most respected oud makers, like guitar makers, have given us
instruments that, while differing in various ways have something unique and powerful about them, somethings that, for instance, has so many players
seeking old Nahats, or Onniks, or what have you. I wonder if the Nahats put up with endless custom requests of if they mostly made what they made,
take it or leave it? Did players tell Stradivari how to voice their violins? I believe the best approach is to let the builder have the freedom to
express his art without a lot of interference from the player, other than personal physical requirements, and to then choose from these builders based
on reputation and when possible by playing their instruments. Further, I believe that there's a fine line between ordering a great instrument and
tinkering with the details so much that the instrument might not reflect the builder's strengths. Luthiers have complained mightily to me about
over-indugent buyers who hear think they hear tonal distinction at a level usually reserved for cats and dogs. I certainly support a buyer discussing
options of all sorts, but it's also important to let the builder give an honest opinion of whether or not that particular concept will really
work. There's great magic in telling a builder what you hear in your head and then letting the him choose the tone woods, bracing and details for
you, allowing the artist to really produce his art with a sense of freedom and authority. I had an acoustic guitar built recently, entirely designed
by the luthier except for the scale length, and he did a superb job.
As far as copies versus the real thing--what's real anymore? Performance requirements have changed, the sound of the instruments change with the
times, players alter their style according to contemporary influences. I could buy a nice Nahat copy and never have the chance to compare it to the
specific original it was meant to mimic. Old instruments can be terrific, but it's great to order a fine new instrument and break it in with your
own vibrations. We all search for the perfect instrument and rarely find it. I'd rather leave the details up to a builder I trust and spend my
time working on my oud playing, which needs all the attention I can give it!Ronny Andersson - 2-5-2004 at 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nadir
isnt cedar wood better than all other woods for the soundboard though? what about rosewood?
how do these woods compare with pallisander spyros??
thanks in advance!!
Nadir, rosewood and palisander is the same wood. Popular names are many times very missleading. The same with cedar, the cedar guitar makers and some
western oud makers uses are not true cedar species from the middle east.Adel - 2-5-2004 at 02:13 PM
Hi AL billings,
If you feel strongly about giving freedom to instrument makers to make their instrument for you, and you beleive by doing so you will get what you
want
Then I think you should make the right choice from the begining
I.e you should ask somebody who is cabable of making his own ouds and have a strong views about his instruments, somebody with his own voice, i.e when
you play his/ her ouds , you will say, yes this is such and such person....., and this will not come out from somebody who is copying ouds.
Go to Fathi amin, and he will make you his ouds, that when we play , every oud player will say, this is Fathi's oud, it's his mark.
Nahat is Nahat, Manol is Manol, Fadel is Fadel.
Think about it before you through your money away.
Good luck,
AdelTruePharaoh21 - 2-5-2004 at 02:57 PM
I gotta agree with Adel here. Also, Fathi Amin's ouds have very distinctive sounds to them, as he mentioned. His ouds are wonderful and playable
in the highest regard. If you want a good quality oud, go for him. His touch is the same on his ouds, as it should be.
TP21
Oud Quality
Al Billings - 2-5-2004 at 03:15 PM
Adel, isn't that what I just said?spyros mesogeia - 2-6-2004 at 12:22 PM
Dear frien Nadir you know my opinion about the woods....and you know that first of all I personally try the ouds and the quality of the ouds....
The competition is high and that is why we want to keep the standards high,we do our best about that.....
As for the orginal '''old'' ouds,my personal opinion is that I prefer something new with all the technological-engenearing
sound improvements,[braces ,bridges,matterials],and to keep all the good elements from the old ouds....I believe that the oud will be much more better
in the future...I respect the history but I can say that and the future is bright too....so I wouldn't give thousands of euros for a 100 years
instrument,because with those money,I can get some new good instruments now...I do not own a museum,and I am not a collector of old ouds....I like
them too,but I prefer the new ones....it is a matter of principle....
I will be very proud after some years when I will be old and ho knows untill than....maybe one of the actual oud makers that I own theyr instrument
will be a great Maker with reputation....
Here in Greece we respect the great Manol,that is what make the diference from all the other ouds....even and the turkish traditional oudmakers
believe that the Manol was and still is one of the greatest....
Lets not forget....
THE OUD IS A VERY OLD INSTRUMENTS AND THE INFLUENCES ARE MANY .... everybody use the principles that he saw and has in his tradition....it is not
something new,it is an evolution...but with all the respect that he owns....
We can't make something diferrent totally from these oudmakers,otherwise it has to be something totally diferent,and I don't think that it
will be oud anymore....That is my opinion.....
Ho knows????? hehehehehspyros mesogeia - 2-6-2004 at 12:40 PM
Dear friend Adel,
Do you really believe that a Dimitris oud or a Faruk Turunz,or a Sehata oud is ''through '' away of money?
Many great instrument players as Ross Daly,Haig Yazdjian,N.Saragoudas and many many others really apreciate our instruments[I am talking about our
instruments],
Do you really thing that they through theyr money away?
What I want to say is...Each person loves a quite -type of sound and instrument.......
But we don't have the right to say that the other oudmakers are waisting of money...... on each instrument they put a piece of theyr soul and
many many hours of hard work .....BELIEVE ME THAT IS ALOT...
The oud is like the flower....I like the parfum of the rose,and someone else loves the parfum of the carnation....
Dear friends,
The preferences are something personal....but the respect is something in comon...
Regards to all
Spyros Koliavasilisnadir - 2-6-2004 at 02:07 PM
Ronny:
thanks for clearing up all these different names for me and introducing me to a new perspective on cedars. maybe over here i can teach some people
another trick or two? nadir - 2-6-2004 at 02:12 PM
Spyros:
i think that your opinion towards old ouds is suprisingly justified!! and just like you said too, the ouds nowadays ARE becoming better than the
ancient ones...
its probably better to collect better sounding ouds that are newer instead of old ones that you have to watch over 24/7, we also wouldn't want to
lose something like that on the metro like that $3 million violin!!Adel - 2-7-2004 at 06:39 AM
Dear Spyros,
You are an oud dealer, you are looking to sell your ouds. great, nothing wrong with this.
But, you have to know that the issue for me here is originality,i.e an oud maker who can speak for him/her self.
i know fathi can do this, I also know Moustafa in Istanbul can do this , not many of them are left unfortunately.
Many oud players still uses old Nahats and Manol, and they are very happy with them.
Many oud makers now a days has lost the essence of oud making, concentrating on the finish of the oud and not much left for the soul of the
instrument.
Any way a new oud will need up to 10 years for the sound to Mature.
I hope I am not offending anybody here.
Good luck,
Adelspyros mesogeia - 2-7-2004 at 07:45 AM
Dear friend Adel,
First of all I would like to tell you that I am not an oud dealer,I work as a medical doctor,and I don't have any profit of the oud....
I represent Dimitris because he is a very good friend of mine and he is the only Greek oudmaker that I personally know here in Greece and makes
quality instruments....
What is the most original oudmaker my friend...?This is a big question.....I personally can't answer that.....I owned many instruments from many
oudmakers,and I have the luck and the honour to be near to one of the greatest teachers here in Greece....So believe me I have seeing and touch and
play many good instruments all these years...
What we really want is not to see the other oudmakers as enemies,but as friends....the competition is something very good for this instruments....
As I said before ,I really judge the instruments that I have play untill today,and I owned and one of mister Mustafa's instruments....My teacher
knows him and personally,and I personally know many oudmakers....you see we are not enemies,we are friends...
As for the period that you have said of ten years I do not agree with you....I saw many instruments that they have shown theyr standards very quickly
and theyr owners still are satisfited,I own an Ejder that is 8 years old,it was my teachers oud....From the beggining was an excellent
instrument....
And as I said before....the new instruments gets your character...and you feel from the begining this relationship...I like that alot,and I really
prefer this relationship....
That is my personal opinion....
I am sure that you understand that if all the ouds were old....all the oudmakers wouldn't do anything progressive
My regards and my respect....
By the way....I like your cd's very much,I have one named Kanza,wonderfull,congratulations
grading an oud
billkilpatrick - 2-24-2004 at 09:10 AM
"concert","professional", "semi-professional" and "study" are some of the classifications used for the
charango. terms like these are open to abuse, of course but something like that could be put in place by an honorable guild of oud makers.
or they could submit their products to an august panel of interested parties (like ME!) and try the "band stand" approach of "it's
got such-and-such a quality, i'll give it a 7." (n.b.: i never really understood what was so terrible about "payola.")
or...they could borrow some wine tasting terminology and describe their products as "insouciant little numbers" or "cheeky
chappies"
or...abandon restraint altogether and talk like real estate agents.
i'd like to think that price was a good indication of quality but i've never been reassured by inordinate expense or the pretensions of a
DIY carpenter cum instrument maker.
hope you sort something out. my wife bought me a box with a neck for christmas and there it sits...
and I will do my best to respond you.....
