Mike's Oud Forums

Arabic vs. turkish ornamentation

Masel - 2-17-2007 at 01:59 AM

There are lots of questions on these boards comparing arabic and turkish ouds, but less discussion on the different approaches to playing.

My teacher is an Iraqi (of the "old style"?) and I can hear it very clearly in his playing. He uses lots of silence between notes/phrases, not much tremolo, his playing has very much an air of dignity, weight and meditation, if to use terms which are non musical but I am sure every musician could understand.

On the other hand, when I listen to turkish style playing, it is alot more "busy", lots of tremolo, legato, and especially vibrato and glissando. It seems they often avoid playing open strings in order to inflect the notes better. I really hear where the sound and playing style for the greek rembetika bouzouki came from.

Share your thoughts on this please. I personally like both styles and am trying to play them both. I think the more you learn about music from every different angle possible, the more your knowledge combines. That's why I also want to learn bouzouki and clarinet, but that's another topic.

By the way, I want to share with you this: you can find strings for the oud with a nylon third (re in arabic tuning). The sound is alot better than the metal string, and it also fits better with the rest of the strings. I really recommend it.

Oudoneit - 2-17-2007 at 10:21 AM

A common ornament in Turkish music is to stop notes sounding by quickly tapping a left hand finger on the sounding string. It's not a hammer on - it just stops the note sounding. Does this have a technical name? It gives a slightly gutteral sound. Is it used in Arabic oud playing? Mutlu Torun notates it with a comma above and to the right of the note, with an indication of which left-hand finger does the stopping. I hear it a lot in Turkish playing, but I haven't listened much to Arabic playing (shock, horror!).

I hope this makes sense...

Rob

samzayed - 2-17-2007 at 10:47 AM

Oudoneit , I've heard/seen this technique used in Arabic style playing, however, I don't know the name. If we're talking about the same thing, this is very subtle - more common with the open string note.

This is an interesting thread. You do hear a lot of technical and melodic differences between arab and turkish oud playing.

John Erlich - 2-17-2007 at 10:48 AM

Shalom Masel,

You're description of the difference between Arabic and Turkish oud style is about the best anyone can do using words.

Rob, I believe the Turkish oud ornament you are decribing is called "çarpma" (pronounced "charpma"), and, I am told by my Turkish friends, means "a sudden tapping." It is very characteristic of Turkish oud ornamentation and used very rarely by Arabic-style oud players (may have something in part to do with higher string action on Arabic ouds).

On the other hand, the fast right hand tremolo, called "rashi" ("sprinkling") in Arabic is used often by Arabic oud players and rarely used by Turkish ud players. In a less "busy" style of playing, maybe the rashi is a way of compensating the lack of sustain on an unfretted instrument.

As Yair Dalal says of the spare-ness of Arabic-style oud, "It is the sound of the desert." ;)

Peace,
Udi John

al-Halabi - 2-17-2007 at 12:19 PM

The typical Turkish ornament referred to here (carpma) has two basic forms. One is a grace note that is either hammered on or played with an upstroke. This added note is played just before the succeeding note, and is joined to it in legato syle. It is counted as part of the note that precedes it so it does not change the time of the next note. The second form is a more staccato version of this grace note. This is the one that I think Oudoneit is describing. Mutlu Torun termed it a "silent tap" (sessiz carpma) to indicate that it is a very light and brief ornamental touch on the string that provides a tissue connecting two notes with an ornament that does not stand out as a clear distinct note.

This ornament is indeed very characteristic of Turkish oud technique. It helps to create the impression of a "busy" playing style. It also often requires playing in higher positions up the fingerboard, for example when doing a succession of descending or ascending ornamented notes. That is one major reason why playing in higher positions is generally more common in Turkish than Arab oud playing.

Masel - 2-17-2007 at 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by John Erlich

As Yair Dalal says of the spare-ness of Arabic-style oud, "It is the sound of the desert." ;)

Peace,
Udi John


Hehe, it's funny you mention him, he's my teacher I was talking about.

John Erlich - 2-17-2007 at 10:20 PM

;) Masel, I was 99% sure you were talking about Yair. Please tell him "drishat shalom" from John in Berkeley.

Kol tuv,
Udi John

Microber - 2-18-2007 at 06:21 AM

Very interesting thread.

Because of my bad understanding of the english language (the nuances), I am not sure to understand exactly what is the the çarpma.
I have listen (once again) to a recording of Cinucen Tanrikorur that I like very much. Where he used a few ornamentation I think typical of Turkish players.
Here are a few brief sound clip.

Is this çarpma ?

Microber - 2-18-2007 at 06:24 AM

A few examples of ornamentations used by Tanrikorur.

Glissando to reach the following note

Microber - 2-18-2007 at 06:26 AM

Glissando at the end of a phrase

Microber - 2-18-2007 at 06:27 AM

Harmonics

al-Halabi - 2-18-2007 at 09:25 AM

Microber,

You picked nice examples of ornamenation typical of Turkish oud playing, and from an oud master with a delicate technique. Your first sample is exactly the carpma. In this descending phrase each of the notes is preceded by a rapid light touch on the next higher note. It is best executed by playing down the fingerboard on the second and third courses, beginning from the re (muhayyer) on the fifth position of the second course. The index finger moves down the course, with the third finger touching the next higher note in the scale just before moving down to the next note, when this pattern is repeated, until the final note of the phrase mi (the open third course).

Lintfree - 2-19-2007 at 12:44 AM

This is a very useful thread and corrects several misconceptions for me as far as damping techniques go. Thanks. I used to think that much of that damping was, in fact, hammering on. It's not. It's as al-Halabi has described it. It's these explanations that make this site valuable for anyone serious about the instrument. The Internet makes this possible.
In the midst of the horrors of war and hate and ignorance there are moments like this. Thanks again. D.L.

billkilpatrick - 2-19-2007 at 01:37 AM

i don't have that many recordings so it's difficult for me to distinguish a regional style (of ornamentation) from an individual's style. i have one cd by cinucen tanrikorur - which rarely gets played - and almost all the rest are andalusian - anaour brahem included.

how would the ornamental characteristics of the andalusian style be described?

is there such a thing as "classical" ornamentation in each style?

... i've homework to do!

really good thread - bill

Lintfree - 2-19-2007 at 02:15 AM

When confronted with a choice of whether to learn one style or another my original teacher told me to study and learn the more complex and then simplify to the less complex. He also stressed that because something was complex didn't mean that it was better. "But it's good to scare people with some flashy technique now and then. Then they pay attention to the subtleties."

Oudoneit - 2-19-2007 at 02:28 AM

Carpma.

Regarding this ornament, Mutlu Torun notates it on page 165 of his tutor. I will try to scan it at home tonight when I get back from work. Being unable to read Turkish, this book can be hard work but it is clearly an important tutor. His 'Rast Etud' on that page has an open second string, next to which is a comma with the number 4 above it. This, to me at least, seems to imply that after the string is plucked, the fourth finger of the left hand stops the string. I think this is the first time Mutly (as I affectionately call him) mentions it. It appears many, many times after this page.

Rob

Oudoneit - 2-19-2007 at 02:32 AM

Arabic: I'm going to a concert in Edinburgh tomorrow night by Adel Salameh and Naziha Azzouz, of music from al-Andalous. There is a a full-day's workshop on Wednesday, which I shall attend. I'll ask him what is characteristic about Arabic ornamentation.

Rob

Microber - 2-19-2007 at 02:37 AM

Oudoneit,
A concert of Adel Salameh ! Lucky guy !

Robert

Oudoneit - 2-19-2007 at 04:33 AM

Yeah? I've never seen or even heard him, but a visiting oudi is not to be missed. I'm looking forward to it even more now!

Rob

billkilpatrick - 2-19-2007 at 07:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oudoneit
Arabic: I'm going to a concert in Edinburgh tomorrow night by Adel Salameh and Naziha Azzouz, of music from al-Andalous. There is a a full-day's workshop on Wednesday, which I shall attend. I'll ask him what is characteristic about Arabic ornamentation.

Rob



i'd say you're in for a good evening:

http://www.adelsalameh.com/gallery.html

Masel - 2-19-2007 at 01:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lintfree
When confronted with a choice of whether to learn one style or another my original teacher told me to study and learn the more complex and then simplify to the less complex. He also stressed that because something was complex didn't mean that it was better. "But it's good to scare people with some flashy technique now and then. Then they pay attention to the subtleties."


Well I agree, but which style do you think is harder? Turkish is harder technically, maybe also in other regards but I know it less well. In any case the technique is not the probelm for me, it's in the details where things get really interesting.

John Erlich - 2-19-2007 at 11:10 PM

I would agree that the Turkish style is technically more difficult than Arabic, but I can't ever remember hearing a competent Turkish-style ud player who can really convincingly play Arabic-style oud. (I don't doubt that the very greatest of the Turkish masters could approximate an Arabic style if they really tried.) It's really "apples vs oranges." I would advise aspiring oudists to either pick whichever style they like to listen to best or consciously combine them.

Adel Salameh is a technically competent oud player with an extraordinary, beautiful sense of melody. Stylistically, I would describe him as "typically Palestinian, but with the kind of quirks you would expect from a musician partly self-taught."

Peace,
Udi John

Oudoneit - 2-20-2007 at 12:39 AM

Here is the first usage of the CARPMA ornament in Mutlu Torun's book:

Oudoneit - 2-20-2007 at 12:41 AM

And here is usage of it in a piece of music: Nihavend Saz Semaisi by Neyzen Tevfik (page 205):

Oudoneit - 2-20-2007 at 12:48 AM

"Adel Salameh is a technically competent oud player with an extraordinary, beautiful sense of melody. Stylistically, I would describe him as "typically Palestinian, but with the kind of quirks you would expect from a musician partly self-taught."

Peace,
Udi John "

Do I detect a value judgement there, Udi John? I hope not. Let's see...who else was partly self-taught? Louis Armstrong, Django, Hendrix, and a few other quirky players...Long live the Quirks!
:xtreme:
Rob

billkilpatrick - 2-20-2007 at 02:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by al-Halabi
Microber,

You picked nice examples of ornamenation typical of Turkish oud playing, and from an oud master with a delicate technique. Your first sample is exactly the carpma. In this descending phrase each of the notes is preceded by a rapid light touch on the next higher note. It is best executed by playing down the fingerboard on the second and third courses, beginning from the re (muhayyer) on the fifth position of the second course. The index finger moves down the course, with the third finger touching the next higher note in the scale just before moving down to the next note, when this pattern is repeated, until the final note of the phrase mi (the open third course).


more or less as described, i was able to do this. don't know if it's what you had in mind but it sounded nice.

... what next?

sitting-up, paying attention (many thanks) - bill

Masel - 2-20-2007 at 03:11 AM

How about the opposite of the carpma, this is what I use more: stirking a note and immediately after pulling the finger off so that the open string plays. It has a really nice arabic feel.

Another thing is where you would perhaps normally play tremolo on a long note (or just strike it once and let it ring), you can play a sort of "half-speed" tremolo, especially at the end of a phrase, so that it sounds very grandiose. Onto this you could add a quick legato, and cut the tremolo in half again, which would result in the combination of these two ornamentations. For example, play an open string G (in arabic tuning), and hammer on an A without striking the string again, then when you release the A note strike the string again, ad infinitum...

One last thing that is used in both arabic and turkish music (I think) is inventing short sequences when improvising, or when filling gaps in between longer notes. If the numbers represent degrees of the scale (1=tonic, 2=second, 3=third etc.), for instance try instead of 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 to play 5 6, 4 5, 3 4, 2 3, 1 2, 1. I hope this isn't too clumsy of an example, it's really recognisable and easy to understand if you hear it. This type of music is made up of many sequences that repeat, probably because the melody is free-er when not bound up by harmony.

Microber - 2-20-2007 at 06:43 AM

A few short soundclip to illustrate the examples would be very appreciated.
Too passionate and important to miss something.

Robert

billkilpatrick - 2-20-2007 at 07:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Masel
How about the opposite of the carpma, this is what I use more: stirking a note and immediately after pulling the finger off so that the open string plays. It has a really nice arabic feel.

Another thing is where you would perhaps normally play tremolo on a long note (or just strike it once and let it ring), you can play a sort of "half-speed" tremolo, especially at the end of a phrase, so that it sounds very grandiose. Onto this you could add a quick legato, and cut the tremolo in half again, which would result in the combination of these two ornamentations. For example, play an open string G (in arabic tuning), and hammer on an A without striking the string again, then when you release the A note strike the string again, ad infinitum...

One last thing that is used in both arabic and turkish music (I think) is inventing short sequences when improvising, or when filling gaps in between longer notes. If the numbers represent degrees of the scale (1=tonic, 2=second, 3=third etc.), for instance try instead of 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 to play 5 6, 4 5, 3 4, 2 3, 1 2, 1. I hope this isn't too clumsy of an example, it's really recognisable and easy to understand if you hear it. This type of music is made up of many sequences that repeat, probably because the melody is free-er when not bound up by harmony.


got those already, thanks ... clumsy-not and crystal clear.

my favorite probably owes more to lester flatt than any string-hero from the mid-east:

876,765,654,543,432,321,21-7,1 ... i think that's how it's written. (trichord jin?) being able to play that "run" with a medium tremolo (alternating between strings where necessary) was something of a milestone for me.

John Erlich - 2-20-2007 at 12:54 PM

Hi Rob,

I am not making a value judgement except to say that I think Adel's style is very original. There both advantages and disadvantages to conservatory training--I often hear jazz musicians complain that everyone trained at the Berklee College of Music sounds alike. I don't think that Adel's playing is technically on par with Simon Shaheen or Taiseer Elias, but I still prefer listening to him because of his "musicality."

Does that make sense?

Peace,
Udi John

Oudoneit - 2-21-2007 at 12:29 AM

Sorry to have jumped on you a little there, Udi John. I've written my review of the concert on another thread - Adel Salem UK Tour. Suffice for this thread on ornamentaion to say that I didn't notice one carpma all night. What I did notice was a fairly relentless barrage of tremolandi, and when these tremolos were on open strings he would suddenly waive his left arm around in a distracting fashion - which is maybe stretching the definition of ornamentation a little in this context!

John Erlich - 2-21-2007 at 12:44 PM

No problem, Rob. My main point is that Adel's playing style is "Palestinian, with a twist" not "Andalusian" (which could mean a couple of different things).

Your description of Adel's playing in the concert is surprising, but I have never heard him live (I live in California, USA). It seems so unlike the playing on his 1996 recording (re-released as "Master of the Oud"):

http://www.amazon.com/Master-Oud-Adel-Salameh/dp/B00007KFR3/sr=1-2/...

On this recording, you hear incredibly lyrical playing with very little showing off.

His playing on "Nuzha" and "Kanza" sounds to me to be in the same vein, but maybe he's in a "shredding" phase right now.

Peace,
Udi John

Oudoneit - 2-21-2007 at 03:08 PM

His latest CD, Rissala, is really good. I will play it a lot. Quite different from his concert and workshop.

I'm sorry this discussion has been side tracked - my fault. Can we get back to the very interesting discussion of ornamentation?

Rob

billkilpatrick - 2-23-2007 at 04:20 AM

this will appear obvious to those who already do ... but for anyone with a limited ability to read music (myself, foremost) singing the line - ornamentation, in this case - or humming it is a good way to pick it up. i also find that following the singer in any given piece is usually a good starting point for improvisation.

i believe that singing the note, before learning how to read it, is considered pukka suzuki method - how can a zillion violin players be wrong?

Oudoneit - 2-23-2007 at 05:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by billkilpatrick
how can a zillion violin players be wrong?


Well, for a start - they play the violin!

Rob

Arto - 2-24-2007 at 04:23 AM

al-Halabi wrote:

"The typical Turkish ornament referred to here (carpma) has two basic forms. One is a grace note that is either hammered on or played with an upstroke. This added note is played just before the succeeding note, and is joined to it in legato syle. It is counted as part of the note that precedes it so it does not change the time of the next note. The second form is a more staccato version of this grace note. This is the one that I think Oudoneit is describing. Mutlu Torun termed it a "silent tap" (sessiz carpma) to indicate that it is a very light and brief ornamental touch on the string that provides a tissue connecting two notes with an ornament that does not stand out as a clear distinct note."

I´d like to check a little more of this. If we take as an example the upper rast etud of Mutlu Torun´s book scanned earlier and the second measure of it. B note is held by first left hand finger and the carpma is touched with the second finger. Where do I use the pick? I pick the first B note, hammer-on the carpma? And then? Do I pull off the second B note, or pick it? And what then?

For those four written notes in the measure (B,B,B,A), I think I could play with it with 6 pick strokes if I use the pick for every note and grace note, or with only 2 pick strokes (first B and last A) and play all the rest with left hand fingers. How does the tutor mean it to be played?

This grace note stuff is very interesting, as I really like all the nuances Turkish players are using (I think "super-sensitive" was the expression used in Cinucen Tanrokorur CD´s liner notes for his playing), and would be nice to get some into my own VERY basic and dry playing....

Thanks, Arto

Oudoneit - 2-24-2007 at 05:43 AM

Arto,

My understanding of it is that you only pluck BBBA - the second finger does not hammer down, but just touches the string to stop it sounding, choking it. You therefore play four strokes with the right hand. It is not a mordent.

I may be wrong...

Rob

al-Halabi - 2-24-2007 at 06:48 AM

Rob, you are right. In the kind of carpma indicated in this etude, the measure is played with four downstrokes. A split second before playing the second and third B you touch the C lightly to dampen the note.

There is also a legato version of the carpma used in Turkish music, in which you sound the grace note more fully (it is usually indicated by a miniature note). In this more legato form of the grace note the measure could be played either (1) with six pick strokes, including two quick upstrokes on the grace notes C, or (2) with four downstrokes plus two hammer downs on the grace notes.

Although the "silent" type of carpma indicated in the etude is the one most commonly used in Turkish music, all three types are used and it's worthwhile learning all of them.

billkilpatrick - 2-24-2007 at 07:20 AM

just trolling around youtube and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGXkBD2RX44

... the first 10 seconds of which have a very attractive run - my homework for the weekend.

billkilpatrick - 3-6-2007 at 10:32 PM

stillworking on the previous one but here's another youtube video with some interesting - and do-able - ornamentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if9BRU4W1BE

wazza - 4-16-2007 at 02:35 PM

hi everybody

I would like to modestly contribute to this interesting thread.
with my teacher we discussed the ornamentation issue, he said to me that I must concentrate when he's playing, also he slows playing speed down to allow me to catch the ornamentation.
here are some ones applied to the mini scale : G F E D C (C Minor scale - nahawand on C)

I hope you will like
Regards

wazza - 4-16-2007 at 02:43 PM

here is the score of the previously uploaded midi file

(note that I have used the sixty-fourth duration -quadruple croche - notes to simulate the tremolo in the oud)

SamirCanada - 4-16-2007 at 02:52 PM

wow..thanks for that
It makes for a nice structured pratice.