Mike's Oud Forums

Pyramid lute strings

Oud Freak - 11-26-2007 at 01:37 PM

Just to know two things.

1) The code of a pyramid lute wound string, i.e 1111 or 909Al, what does it represent?
2) For a given thickness of a wound string (i.e 0.4mm), how to find the proper code?

MatthewW - 11-26-2007 at 01:48 PM

hi oud freak- you can contact Max at Pyramid strings for all your pyramid oud string questions- he's very friendly and I'm sure will supply you all the info you require.
"Pyramid Strings" <pyramid@junger.de>

jdowning - 11-27-2007 at 05:16 AM

Before contacting 'Pyramid' - have you done a search of this forum? There is a lot of information about Pyramid strings including a set of string tension tables that will enable you to determine (if you do not have the Pyramid string calculator slide rule) - for a given string length and required string tension - the string code that you need. The code Al for example means Aluminium - the material of the wire winding used to cover the nylon filament core of the string.

The key word for your search should be "Pyramid Strings"

zalzal - 11-27-2007 at 01:40 PM

Does pyramid makes 100% gut strings??

jdowning - 11-28-2007 at 03:27 PM

Pyramid do make gut strings - the trebles being 100% gut - but the basses are likely gut (or silk?) core with metal windings. This can be checked out by reference to their Historical Strings catalogue (that I do not have to hand immediately). Will look it up when I have a moment

Benjamin - 11-28-2007 at 10:51 PM

Hi all,
I've recently bought new pyramid strings for my oud, and I really don't like them. The sound is not that good, the strings are not really smooth, they are quite thick and not easy to play. I checked the references and here are the strings I got: N° 665 201 (or set Super Aoud 11-string # 665/11). But the previous pyramid I had were really great, and I notice many people have thiner pyramid strings, so I wonder which model it is. Does anybody can advise me on the precise model I should buy? Thanks!
Benjamin

Benjamin - 11-29-2007 at 02:38 AM

Thanks dear Oud Freak,
So what do you and other members of the forum recommend me to buy for my oud, I mean which reference or codes of pyramid strings I should look for? (I have a Sukar oud if it can help)
Regards

adamgood - 11-29-2007 at 03:44 AM

I just had a very wonderful and successful ud string buying experience in New York City with Haig Manoukian. He carries strings by several manufacturers including Pyramid.

Basically if you were to get in touch with him, tell him your tuning (Arabic variations or Turkish variations, doesn't matter, he's aware of it all) and he can help you figure out which strings you can use.

Since you may be in France it could be worth it for you to by from an American and have them shipped what with the ridiculously low dollar these days.

if you want his contact info just let me know via u2u.

best,
Adam

jdowning - 11-29-2007 at 05:06 AM

Oud Freak - why are you particularly interested in the diameters of the Pyramid wound strings? Just curious.
I am not sure if Pyramid make custom lute (or oud) strings as their manufactured range is very extensive and should cover most needs.

Zalzal - I have just checked the Pyramid Historical string catalogue and they list gut strings mostly for bowed instruments. The trebles, of course, are 100% gut and the basses are solid gut core with either aluminium or silver plated copper wire windings.

OT: to adam

Brian Prunka - 11-29-2007 at 07:28 AM

hey adam, are you still in NY? you playing anywhere?

Oud Freak - 11-29-2007 at 10:45 AM

jdowning... I change the question : let's take for example code 1111
Does pyramid make two or more strings 1111 (for example) with different properties? (thickness and so)? More simple : are all the 1111 identical?

Logically (maybe) a single code represents a string with unique specific properties (for example the 1111 represents a pyramid string of 0.3 mm thickness and a given tension for a given tuning and a given vibrating length). If so, then my question is totally justified, and a potential client is entitled to have the information about the lute strings he wants to buy.

Oud Freak - 11-29-2007 at 10:48 AM

The d'addario strings for oud have their specifications (thickness) written on the pack of the string set. Why does pyramid want to be much more complicated and unclear?

Matthias - 11-29-2007 at 11:30 AM

Hello all,

about the pyramid oud strings I must say, that you should use for professional instruments only the fine lute strings. The ready sets from pyramid ( 650 ... ), are not those that are dedicated to use on a good instruments.

Each producer has his own system to give their strings a number. Each number represents a single strings which gives a certain tension with a given note and string length. The great varieties you will have with that lot of different strings from Pyramid you can see in my collection of oud string sets that I have done. You will find this PDF file for download on my website.

Finally I want to remark, that you can get all Pyramid strings directly from me, shipped to whereever you live. On stock I do have the Aquila strings too, which I like to use on my instruments very much. They give a real warm and singing sound.

So if someone has specific questions, please send them to me.

Regards Matthias

p.s. If someone will visit Haig soon, please transmitt to him my best wishes. I had here with hin a wonderful concert with the groop "TRANSITION" last october. Don't miss any concert if you have the chance to visit one!

jdowning - 11-29-2007 at 01:38 PM

Oud Freak - of course each Pyramid string code number must uniquely define only one string having specific properties. When I place a repeat order for strings with Pyramid they had better be consistent (and are)!

For a compound string, the measured outside diameter does not mean very much - which is likely why Pyramid do not give the diameters of each of their coded strings. I have not done so but I imagine that if I measured the variety of Pyramid overspun strings that I have in stock, I would find that several strings with different code numbers would have the same diameters.
The finished outside diameter of a given compound string depends, of course, upon a number of factors including the core diameter and density (solid or filament wound), the wire diameter and density, the tension on the core in the string winding machine (causing the core to stretch and shrink in diameter), the tension on the wire during the winding process which may shrink the wire diameter and/or distort the wire cross section from circular and which may cause the wire to embed in the core, and the angle of feed of the wire which affects the degree of flattening of each of the coils of the wire rubbing against each other.
The physical string diameter of an overspun string cannot be used in the usual basic mathematical relationship for string calculations applicable to plain cylindrical strings. An "equivalent" diameter - arrived at by experimentation and experience by the string maker - must be used instead. Perhaps this is the "string diameter" provided by d'addario? The Pyramid approach is to provide free tension tables as well as offering a low cost slide rule to help customers avoid any unnecessary complications in string selection which would otherwise require tedious and mundane calculation - and scope for error.

Oud Freak - 11-29-2007 at 11:29 PM

Thank you Jdowning for all this detailed explanation. I'll not hesitate asking you about any pyramid details. Regards

Oud Freak - 11-29-2007 at 11:43 PM

Benjamin,
Yesterday night I tried replying you by a long detailed post but the connection dumped me!
Anyway, as for your sukkar oud, I also tried pyramid oud strings on two succar ouds I previously owned. They sounded ok but not that particular. In fact it is a matter of taste. Ouds are like a human body. No human body looks good in all kind of clothes, this is the same for ouds and oud strings.

As for sukkar ouds, Mr. Sukkar delivers a whole package at an affordable price, which is made of:
The oud+a cover+a plectrum that makes the oud sound good and allow a good playability.
His ouds are multi-purpose ones (passe partout), rather solid and ok looking, without excessive decoration and rainbow colors.
The strings delivered with the oud are not of such a good quality but they surprisingly offer the oud a nice deep and warm sound. Much better indeed that the sound delivered when other good quality strings are used.
My advice for you is that you try to get a string set from MR. Sukkar himself. Of course you know his website is http://www.oudsukar.com, a simple and concise web site, made for information purposes and not show off.
Mr. Sukkar has talented workers in his workshop, which allow him to produce relatively high quantities of ouds, bouzoks, nash2at kar, qanouns and so... He is the thinking head and the designer. The ouds are assembled and manufactured by his gifted workers who do a good job. Unfortunately most of his ouds do not carry his touch. Unlike the greatest Fadi Matta who makes his excellent ouds from A to Z with his own hands.
I consequently advice you to get in contact with Mr. Ibrahim Sukkar, he is a nice and modest person.
Regards

jdowning - 11-30-2007 at 09:41 AM

for those who have an interest in string technology beyond what this or that string manufacturer can supply, an interesting article covering overspun string calculations was published in FoMRHI in October 1978 - Comm 163 "Overspun String Calculations" by Segerman and Abbott. Those who do not have access to FoMRHI publications can obtain reprints of this (as well as a host of other articles by historical stringmaker and early instrument researcher Eph Segerman) which may be purchased at nominal cost from NRI Instruments at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk

Oud Freak - 12-10-2007 at 03:40 AM

Jdowning,
Thanks for all the information. I would like not to take the problem from its end and solution.
What is according to you, the PYRAMID LUTE STRINGS to be chosen from their catalog for a 58.5cm vibrating length on a floating bridge oud, for similar sounds generated by Nassir CHamma, Ahmad EL Khatib , Mounir Bachir...
Regards

PSab - 12-10-2007 at 04:32 AM

For the past 8 months, I have used guitar strings (for the trebles only) rather than oud strings. They are thicker (by a minute amount) which gives the instrument a fuller sound and a better balance between the bases and the trebles (I often found that as I came down the trebles the sound quality dropped but since I have switched, I find a better louder sound. )
You may wish to try this.

MatthewW - 12-10-2007 at 05:14 AM

thanks for the tip Psab! what make guitar strings do you use?

jdowning - 12-10-2007 at 05:17 AM

Oud Freak - that is for your ear to determine not mine!

Ronny Andersson - 12-10-2007 at 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oud Freak
Jdowning,
Thanks for all the information. I would like not to take the problem from its end and solution.
What is according to you, the PYRAMID LUTE STRINGS to be chosen from their catalog for a 58.5cm vibrating length on a floating bridge oud, for similar sounds generated by Nassir CHamma, Ahmad EL Khatib , Mounir Bachir...
Regards


I prefer nylgut for the three top course on my Bashir oud by Fawzy Monshed (57cm). I bought them from Matthias Wagner. The nylgut is superior in sound any nylon strings I used before and are also more nice to the eagle risha.

Oud Freak - 12-10-2007 at 08:15 AM

Jdowning, I am just asking what types (codes?) of pyramid lute strings does Nasseer Chamma (for example...) use. Either you know and u don't want to say as if it was a state secret, or u don't. In both cases there is nothing wrong, but I prefer a direct answer, if you do have. It goes without saying that it is a matter of personal taste. If I try the Nasseer Chamma combination I may like it and I make not, despite the fact that I am a drop of water with comparison to his ocean. Regards

Ronny Andersson - 12-10-2007 at 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oud Freak
Jdowning, I am just asking what types (codes?) of pyramid lute strings does Nasseer Chamma (for example...) use. Either you know and u don't want to say as if it was a state secret, or u don't. In both cases there is nothing wrong, but I prefer a direct answer, if you do have. It goes without saying that it is a matter of personal taste. If I try the Nasseer Chamma combination I may like it and I make not, despite the fact that I am a drop of water with comparison to his ocean. Regards


Why dont you ask Mattihas Wagner instead of asking John who really is not Bashir oud guy. Matthias have answers to all your questions both here on the forum or on his web site http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7012

Oud Freak - 12-10-2007 at 08:45 AM

Matthias, thanks for your replies, I am interested. Even the english version of your website is very german and not easy to decifer. I also didn't know what to download. Which brand is the SET OUD P10? Can you please send the related link for this set on ur website. Thanks.
OF

Matthias - 12-11-2007 at 01:07 AM

Hello Oud freak,

to find my download center do the following:

http://www.lutes-strings.de
--> english version
--> download center in the left frame
--> "Saiten / strings" link in the first table
--> Aoud Saiten / strings can be downloaded by clicking on the disk symbol.

for the use of my shop:

--> click on plucked in the left frame
--> enter into the field under "A) direct search after a known item number:" a item number, a text for instance oud ...
if you put in "SET OUD" you will find all all sets from the downloaded file composed by me
--> if you enter "AQO" you will find all original Aquila sets.
--> etc.

hope that helps.

Best regards Matthias
Quote:
Originally posted by Oud Freak
Matthias, thanks for your replies, I am interested. Even the english version of your website is very german and not easy to decifer. I also didn't know what to download. Which brand is the SET OUD P10? Can you please send the related link for this set on ur website. Thanks.
OF

Oud Freak - 12-11-2007 at 03:42 AM

Mathias, many thanks! Will try to order something from the USA (I will tell my relative to do so), I don't really trust the post here in Leb, although all say that it is very good.
How much are the shipping costs from Germany till NY?
Regards,
OF

Oud Freak - 12-11-2007 at 03:49 AM

Mathias, sorry once more for bothering. I hesitated also a lot before asking you this. Once SImon Chaheen gave a oud master class here in Lebanon around two or years ago. He said that he used the Lute Pyramid strings when a student asked him. Then, after the class and he promised to give me the code names, and he didn't! In fact by saying he will, he looked bothered and tried to avoid the subject. He uses a Nahat Oud I beleive. So, what do u think is the best string combination for a Nahat Out (61.5cm), normal bridge? Many thanks!

Matthias - 12-11-2007 at 04:14 AM

Hello Oud Freak,

for an old Nahat I would recommend the following set, which I recently had sold for an old Instrument from 1924:

c PYNR 0650 36
g PYNR 0825 32,5
d PY 1009 32,5
A PY 1016 34
F PY 1022 32
D PY 1236 35

Shipping costs to the US are ~8 EUR

Regards Matthias

Brian Prunka - 12-11-2007 at 07:29 AM

I believe it was my oud referenced in Matthias' comment above . . . the wound strings worked great but the plain were a little too heavy. you might try switching them out for something lighter. I did, and it made the whole instrument sing.

Matthias - 12-11-2007 at 08:13 AM

Hello Brian,

yes, this was your set. No problem to change the plain strings. Feedbacks are important for me, thanks a lot.

Matthias