Mike's Oud Forums

MAP of OUDISTAN

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 06:21 AM

Hi All....

I want to get started charting the map of OUDISTAN...
...here is a very very quick and rough first take.

Please offer me some advice as to improve upon this: perhaps various colours to make distinguishments of various sorts?

:))


Reda Aouad - 4-9-2009 at 06:45 AM

Speaking of oudland.. have you ever visited Lebanon? Are you planning to? Why and why not?

Owain-Hawk - 4-9-2009 at 06:50 AM

Hi Edward, cool map. By the way, I have seen videos of Oud players in Senegal on youtube (can't find it now, saw it over a year ago). I don't think its a tradition however..

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 07:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Speaking of oudland.. have you ever visited Lebanon? Are you planning to? Why and why not?


Tempted... why do you ask?

Mohammed Antar encouraged me to go there - he says they still teach maqam "properly" there. Of course his brother is there. Also he set up for me an invitation to go study oud making there with Albert Mansour.

However, I am still not sure where my next trip will take me... perhaps to Iran - - - ?

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 07:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Owain-Hawk
Hi Edward, cool map. By the way, I have seen videos of Oud players in Senegal on youtube (can't find it now, saw it over a year ago). I don't think its a tradition however..


I wonder how much oud there is in West Africa??

fhydan - 4-9-2009 at 07:49 AM

Mauritania is an Arab country. So I assume oud is played there?
Also, the color green seems to have leaked onto the gulf between the arabian peninsula and iran.:D

maran - 4-9-2009 at 07:51 AM

interesting how none of the countries that make up "oudistan" actually end in -stan, but the ones that do are outside of it. i thought that the -stan root is part of indo-european morphology, which is why it doesn't appear in the semitic-speaking world . maybe should be something else, "oud-ia"?

Reda Aouad - 4-9-2009 at 07:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell
Tempted... why do you ask?

Mohammed Antar encouraged me to go there - he says they still teach maqam "properly" there. Of course his brother is there. Also he set up for me an invitation to go study oud making there with Albert Mansour.

However, I am still not sure where my next trip will take me... perhaps to Iran - - - ?



Because Im Lebanese :D
(Location Qatar because Im currently working there..)

I don't know how much you know about Albert Mansour.. but he is one of the finest oud makers in Lebanon.. Marcel Khalife mostly plays his ouds. I once watched a youtube movie about him but cannot find it at the moment.

I don't want to lengthen the discussion much and get off the topic here.. if you want we can discuss it elsewhere.. but I assure you there are very fine makers aside Albert such as Fadi Matta and Nazih Ghadban.. and maybe you could also setup meetings with professional oud players who knows.. plus it's one of the most beautiful Arab countries :)

Reda Aouad - 4-9-2009 at 08:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fhydan
Mauritania is an Arab country. So I assume oud is played there?
Also, the color green seems to have leaked onto the gulf between the arabian peninsula and iran.:D


The green is also not filling east Iran :P

About Mauritania.. personally I didn't hear of any oud players there..

But I have a Pakistani friend here who told me once that they also play it in Pakistan when I was playing my oud in front of him.. but not sure if it is of tradition and heritage or not.. and what about its neighbor Afghanistan?

Reda Aouad - 4-9-2009 at 08:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell
Hi All....

I want to get started charting the map of OUDISTAN...
...here is a very very quick and rough first take.

Please offer me some advice as to improve upon this: perhaps various colours to make distinguishments of various sorts?

:)


Well.. about the color issue.. we can distinguish the following from a first look:
- Turkey (origin for many maqams) and Greece (but how much are they related ?)
- The Arab Gulf (because of their distinctive rhythms and style of playing
- Iran (origin for many maqams)
- Iraq (distinctive style of playing - also origin of few maqams)
- Egypt (source of the greatest compositions ever)
- The Maghreb (Morocco / Algeria / Tunisia / Lybia)
- Soudan

Im not sure where we can classify other countries such as Lebanon, Syria and Palestine.. maybe with the Egyptian classification.. and what about Yemen? I don't know much about it but can it be grouped with the Arab Gulf?

Maybe someone can also improve on my draft classification..

Butrous - 4-9-2009 at 08:18 AM

There is maqamat and an art music compound form like a nouba or waslah in Mauritania sung by women singers. I don't know if they use the oud.

You can find the oud in the East African coastal region all the way down to Zanzibar, where musicians might still use the oud in a style known as Taraab, Taarab or Tarab.

There are Somali singing oud players.

Also, shouldn't you include Armenia?

tchandler - 4-9-2009 at 08:53 AM

hmmm, I don't see California on there...

Peyman - 4-9-2009 at 09:18 AM

You can paint Azerbaijan and Armenia green too. They sometimes use the oud in their ensembles.

DaveH - 4-9-2009 at 09:39 AM

Yep, ouds right down the swahili coast (there's even an iraqi maqam called swehli, which I assume is related? - EDIT or maybe it's just to do with the coast). I've seen one being played in Ilha de Mocambique.

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fhydan
Mauritania is an Arab country. So I assume oud is played there?
Also, the color green seems to have leaked onto the gulf between the arabian peninsula and iran.:D


...thanks, i'll clean up that green (glad it wasn't an oil spill:mad:)

youtube search turned up nothing for mauritania oud...
but this... cool music! is it oud?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8lVYH53odY

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 09:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by maran
interesting how none of the countries that make up "oudistan" actually end in -stan, but the ones that do are outside of it. i thought that the -stan root is part of indo-european morphology, which is why it doesn't appear in the semitic-speaking world . maybe should be something else, "oud-ia"?


or... "oudland" :shrug:

..."oud republic?"

..."oud union?"

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 09:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Quote:
Originally posted by fhydan
Mauritania is an Arab country. So I assume oud is played there?
Also, the color green seems to have leaked onto the gulf between the arabian peninsula and iran.:D


The green is also not filling east Iran :P

About Mauritania.. personally I didn't hear of any oud players there..

But I have a Pakistani friend here who told me once that they also play it in Pakistan when I was playing my oud in front of him.. but not sure if it is of tradition and heritage or not.. and what about its neighbor Afghanistan?


I think that there is not much happening musically (makam/oud musically) in the East part of Iran. I think the music we are "concerned" with is focused in the west of Iran... and understanding THIS has help me to finally answer a long standing question I have had as to why suddenly when you get to Afghanistan and Pakistan - all the microtones disappear. I see now that east iran is a sort of no-mans-land acting like a buffer-zone btw it and those more "indianized" states to the east. [sorry for these gross over-generalizations].

I'm 99% sure there is not much oud presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan (they have RABAB). Also, at the moment there is basically almost no oud in Iran (tiny bit of barbat and that's about it I am presuming) -- they have tar and setar.

Owain-Hawk - 4-9-2009 at 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell
Quote:
Originally posted by fhydan
Mauritania is an Arab country. So I assume oud is played there?
Also, the color green seems to have leaked onto the gulf between the arabian peninsula and iran.:D


...thanks, i'll clean up that green (glad it wasn't an oil spill:mad:)

youtube search turned up nothing for mauritania oud...
but this... cool music! is it oud?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8lVYH53odY


I think they play either this, http://www.jeanduperrex.ch/Site/Corde_files/Gembri-horiz-filtered.j... or this http://www.oliverrajamani.com/images/brad.jpg in Mauritania...

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Reda AouadWell.. about the color issue.. we can distinguish the following from a first look:
- Turkey (origin for many maqams) and Greece (but how much are they related ?)
- The Arab Gulf (because of their distinctive rhythms and style of playing
- Iran (origin for many maqams)
- Iraq (distinctive style of playing - also origin of few maqams)
- Egypt (source of the greatest compositions ever)
- The Maghreb (Morocco / Algeria / Tunisia / Lybia)
- Soudan

Im not sure where we can classify other countries such as Lebanon, Syria and Palestine.. maybe with the Egyptian classification.. and what about Yemen? I don't know much about it but can it be grouped with the Arab Gulf?

Maybe someone can also improve on my draft classification..


So, perhaps Oudistan ought to be a sort of loosely held together federation of allied states? Each with it's own colour?

In this case what should those "states" be?

-perhaps according to style:
1. Turkey/Greece/Armenia
2. Egypt/Levent
3. Iraq
4. Iran
5. Magreb
6. Saudi/Arab Gulf/Oman
7. Sudan
8. Yemen

...perhaps this Oud Federation can have strong "allies" in places like California and France that are obviously not true "oudland states" but nevertheless host a significant appriciation and practice of the art?

Peyman - 4-9-2009 at 10:11 AM

Quote:
Also, at the moment there is basically almost no oud in Iran (tiny bit of barbat and that's about it I am presuming) -- they have tar and setar.


You shouldn't confuse folk music with classical music (art music). In the East, they play robabs, sarood (the bowed type) etc. Ostad Nariman, one of the first people to become a dedicated oud player is from Mashhad, which is in Khorasan area to the East.
They play a lot of oud in Iran. It's present in almost all ensembles along side the robab (the Persian type) to fill in for the bass.

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Butrous
There is maqamat and an art music compound form like a nouba or waslah in Mauritania sung by women singers. I don't know if they use the oud.

You can find the oud in the East African coastal region all the way down to Zanzibar, where musicians might still use the oud in a style known as Taraab, Taarab or Tarab.

There are Somali singing oud players.

Also, shouldn't you include Armenia?


So Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya, Mauritania should be included???

Maybe these states could be considered OUDISTAN SATELITE STATES? ...they could have a more faded colour.... what you think?

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Peyman
You can paint Azerbaijan and Armenia green too. They sometimes use the oud in their ensembles.


Armenia for sure.... but Azer???? Is not oud MUCH MUCH more prominent in Armenia. I have been under the impression that there is basically no oud in Azer..... or should it get SATELITE STATUS :)) ?

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DaveH
Yep, ouds right down the swahili coast (there's even an iraqi maqam called swehli, which I assume is related? - EDIT or maybe it's just to do with the coast). I've seen one being played in Ilha de Mocambique.


So which countries (concretely) should get full OUDISTAN FEDERATION STATUS, and which should get SATELITE STATUS?

what about some youtube documentation for those questionable states? Maybe there should be some criteria... like minimum of 3 youtube oud clips for a country of very good professional playing to get full status?? :)) :))

Reda Aouad - 4-9-2009 at 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveH
Yep, ouds right down the swahili coast (there's even an iraqi maqam called swehli, which I assume is related? - EDIT or maybe it's just to do with the coast). I've seen one being played in Ilha de Mocambique.


So which countries (concretely) should get full OUDISTAN FEDERATION STATUS, and which should get SATELITE STATUS?

what about some youtube documentation for those questionable states? Maybe there should be some criteria... like minimum of 3 youtube oud clips for a country of very good professional playing to get full status?? :)) :))


HAHA.. Are you serious? Who says youtube can be a reference?! If no oud videos appear by typing "oud Afghanistan" in the search box in youtube does that conclude it?

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Owain-HawkI think they play either this, http://www.jeanduperrex.ch/Site/Corde_files/Gembri-horiz-filtered.j... or this http://www.oliverrajamani.com/images/brad.jpg in Mauritania...


...yes!

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Peyman
Quote:
Also, at the moment there is basically almost no oud in Iran (tiny bit of barbat and that's about it I am presuming) -- they have tar and setar.


You shouldn't confuse folk music with classical music (art music). In the East, they play robabs, sarood (the bowed type) etc. Ostad Nariman, one of the first people to become a dedicated oud player is from Mashhad, which is in Khorasan area to the East.
They play a lot of oud in Iran. It's present in almost all ensembles along side the robab (the Persian type) to fill in for the bass.


Really! Thanks for this important info :)

Reda Aouad - 4-9-2009 at 10:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell

...perhaps this Oud Federation can have strong "allies" in places like California and France that are obviously not true "oudland states" but nevertheless host a significant appriciation and practice of the art?


I think they should be colonies ;)

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 10:24 AM

Colonies would be another catagorie - - - like perhaps Sudan where the oud was introduced and has begun displacing the older established stringed instrument? ...like the guitar is now displacing the oud in Egypt and Turkey for example ??

Butrous - 4-9-2009 at 10:31 AM

Is the oud important in the current post Soviet political state called Armenia? If not, why are there important historical Armenian oud makers from Turkey, Syria, and Lebanon? Why are historical and current Armenian musicians so active in music making and recording outside of what is called Armenia.

I would hold off on adding the other Islamic African counties previously mentioned for now until you receive more supporting evidence.

In the mean time you can view interesting singing Somali oud players on youtube.com.

adamgood - 4-9-2009 at 11:01 AM

Edward,

I would highly recommend including Macedonia (FYROM) on the map:

"Chalgija"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Calgija

music was sung and played on clarinet, violin, kanun, ud, daire typically by Ethnic Turks. Actually this was my introduction to Turkish music in a way.

adamgood - 4-9-2009 at 11:03 AM

For that matter Albania is no stranger to ud but it's a bit more rare I believe.

maran - 4-9-2009 at 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Powell
Quote:
Originally posted by Peyman
You can paint Azerbaijan and Armenia green too. They sometimes use the oud in their ensembles.


Armenia for sure.... but Azer???? Is not oud MUCH MUCH more prominent in Armenia. I have been under the impression that there is basically no oud in Azer..... or should it get SATELITE STATUS :)) ?


i'm not sure i would include armenia as part of oudistan. i think it would more properly belong to keyboardistan.

jokes aside i wouldn't include it with greece and turkey, if anything i would put it with iran/azerbaijan. the traditional ensembles play tar, qyamancha, etc. and not ud, kemence. i say if anything though because in fact the "experts"/culture police there will tell you that there is no makam/mugham in "real" armenian music (whatever that is - supposedly music composed in st. petersburg by soviet-trained composers?). and this is why the kanun they play there can only play equal-tempered whole and half-tones (which makes it completely worthless as far as i am concerned). i play the kanun but i would never play a kanun like that.

i guess the music armenians played before the invention of the equal-tempered scale, as well as the church hymns which are in huzzam, segah, hicaz, rast, etc are not real armenian music.

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 12:41 PM

well - - - some contraversy over Armenia.

To be honest, all I know about Armenian music is Richard Hagopian and who is that other guy who made the CD "An Armenian in America"?? ...and then there is the famous duduk player who's name I can't pronounce...

So it seems there are some Armenian/Americans playing oud, but what about Armenians in Armenia??

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 12:42 PM

Libya is another place I never heard of any oudis from..... is there any music in Libya?

Ararat66 - 4-9-2009 at 01:31 PM

Well Armenia is Hayastan in Armenia, Udi Hrant was an Ottoman Armenian (or however you would describe an ethic Armenian in Istanbul!!!).

Leon

Butrous - 4-9-2009 at 01:59 PM

The oud is taught as a folk instrument at the Yerevan Komitas State Conservatory.

bpcNORD - 4-9-2009 at 02:02 PM

Here's a list of "famous" oud players:
In Canada

Dikran Richard Sarookanian (of Armenian descent)
Gordon Grdina
Sean Goharzadeh
Filis Ann Ozkurdum
In Greece:

Tsiamoulis Christos
Michalis Tsouganakis
Periklis Tsoukalas
Alekos K. Vretos [4]
Haig Yazdjian (Armenian descent)
Giorgos Alevizos [5]
Nikos Saragoudas
Nikos Dimitriadis
Vasilis Kasouras
In Egypt:

Riyad al-Sunbati
Hazem Shaheen (1978-)
Farid Al Attrach (1915-1974)
Mohammed Abdel Wahab (1907-1991)
Mohamed El Asabgi (1892-1966)
Sayed Darwish (1892-1923)
Sheikh Imam (1918-1995)
In Iran:

Hossein Behroozinia (1962-)
Arsalan Kamkar (1960-)
Mansour Nariman (1938-)
Mohammad Delnavazi (1954-)
Mohammad Firoozi (1957-)
Ahad Goharzadeh (1958-?)
Jamal Jahanshad (1948-)
Yousef Kamoosi (1902-1987)
Mohammad Khansarian (1948-)
Hasan Manoochehri (1934-)
Shahram Mirjalali (1959-)
Akbar Mohseni (1911-1995)
Abdulvahab Shahidi (1921-)
Nasrollah Zarrinpanjeh (1906-1982)
In Iraq:

Salman Shukur
Rahim Al Haj
Jamil Bashir
Munir Bashir (Iraq/Hungary)
Ahmed Mukhtar (Iraq/London)
Naseer Shamma
Ali Alemaam
Ghanim Haddad
Asim Al-Chalabi (Iraq/Austria)
Salim Al-Nur (Iraq/Israel)
Fawzy Al-Aiedy (Iraq/France)
Mohammed Saleh Lelo (Iraq/Qatar)
Salim Abd Al-Karim
Ali Hassan
Ali al-Imam
Ruhi Al-Kamash
In Kuwait:

Ibrahim Tami (Kuwait)
Bader Hamdan (Kuwait)
Hamad Bo Resli (Kuwait)
Jarah Al Hadari (Kuwait)
Fozi Al Lenqawi (Kuwait)
Salman Al Ammari (Kuwait)
Salah Hamad Khalifah (Kuwait)
Yousef Al Motref (Kuwait)
In Lebanon:

Wadih el Safi
Rabih Abou-Khalil
Marcel Khalife
Charbel Rouhana
Bassem Rizk
Fouad Harraka (Lebanon/Australia)
George Abyad (Lebanon/Syria)
Abdul Salam Kheir
Mazen Fouad Salha
Ziad El Ahmadie
In Morocco:

Tarik Banzi
Ahmed El Bidaoui
Said Chraybi
Driss El Maloumi
Armand Sabach
In Palestine:

Le trio Joubran
Simon Shaheen
Ahmad Al-Khatib
Issa Boulos [6]
Nizar Rohana
Samer Totah [7]
Adel Salameh
Kamilya Jubran
Haytham Safia (Palestine/Netherlands)
In Saudi Arabia:

Al-sharif Mohyi-aldain bin ali haidar pacha(Hejaz/Saudi Arabia)
Mohammed ali Al-Sindi
Tariq Abdul-Hakeem
Omar Kadars
Fawzi Mahsoon
Abadi al-Johar
Talal Maddah
Ghazi Ali
Bashir Shannan
Khalid Abdulrahman
In Somalia:

Hudaydi
Omar Dhuule
Hanuuniye
In Sudan:

Mustafa Said Ahmed (Sudan)
Mohamed Al Amin (Sudan)
In Syria:

Alsiadi [8] (Syria/USA)
Muhammad Qadri Dalal
Abolrahman Jabakjl
Omar Naqishbandi
Afif Taian
In Tunisia:

Anouar Brahem
Amine-Hamza M'RAIHI
Dhafer Youssef
Ali Es-Sriti
Khmaies Tarnen
In Turkey:

Ismail Fencioglu
Udi Yorgo Bacanos (1900-1977, also known as Georgios Mpatzanos) (ethnic Greek)
Münir Nurettin Beken
Necati Çelik
Mısır'lı İbrahim Efendi (1872-1933)
Samim Karaca
Udi Hrant Kenkulian (1901-1978) (ethnic Armenian)
Udi Bogos Kireciyan (ethnic Armenian)
Ûdi Nevres Bey (1873-1937)
Coşkun Sabah
Cinuçen Tanrıkorur (1938-2000)
Serif Muhiddin Targan (1892-1967)
İlyas Tetik
Yurdal Tokcan
Mutlu Torun
Gülçin Yahya
In Yemen:

Abu Baker Salem
Ali Alanisi
Ahmed Fathy
Ali Einaba
Alshameeri
Fasel Alawei
Fuad Alkibsy
Najiba Abdullah
Jamil Ghanim (Jemen/Baghdad)
In United Kingdom

Robin Williamson (1943-)
In United States

Daron Malakian (Armenian)
Ahmed Abdul-Malik (United States/Sudan)
Saadoun Al-Bayati [9] (United States/Iraq)
Hamza El Din (Egypt/Sudan/United States)
Sandy Bull (United States)
Rachid Halihal [10] (United States/Morocco)
Naji Hilal [11] (United States/Lebanon)
Naser Musa [12] (Palestine/Lebanon)
Levent Firat (born in Turkey) [13]
David Lindley (United States) [14]
Gayle Ellett (United States) [15]
Basil Samara (United States/Lebanon)
Scott Wilson (United States)
Mavrothi T. Kontanis (United States/Greece [16]
Majed Abu Ajameyeh (born in Palestine)
of Armenian descent:
John Berberian
Richard Hagopian
Roupen Altiparmakian (United States/Greece) (born in Adana, Turkey)
John Bilezikjian
Ara Dinkjian
Charles "Chick" Ganimian
Marty Kentigian
Haig Manoukian
Marko Melkon (Melkon Alemsharian) (born in Izmir, Turkey)
George Mgrdichian
Harry Minassian
Antranig Kzirian [17]
Others:

Ahmad Firdaus Baragbah (Jambi/Indonesia)
Zulkarnain Yusof (Johor/Malaysia)
Samir Zaki (Jordan)
Ali Bin Rogha (United Arab Emirates)
Joseph Tawadros (Australia)
George Farah

I think the Armenians are well represented in Oudland!

maran - 4-9-2009 at 02:12 PM

yes and not one of them ever lived in armenia. we are talking about armenia as a country, are we not?

btw daron malakian plays ud!? i would like to see that one. why not put all of our names on that list.

seriously if anyone knows him can you tell him to upload some of his tracks, a taksim maybe?

they are missing one name by the way, a very good one: jack baghsarian. i'm going to upload some tracks when i get home.

eliot - 4-9-2009 at 04:20 PM

The absence of Kenya and Malaysia are a major oversight... there is a huge and thriving oud culture in Kenya, and we used to have a couple Malaysian oud players and one Malaysian oud maker on this board (who made carved, not staved instruments!), who indicated there is a scene happening there, with a unique repertoire.

I'm with Maran. I don't know of any Armenian oud players living in Armenia (now or historically), and the "classic" Armenian oud culture was specific to Armenians living in urban areas of Western Anatolia and Antep (in the East). Oud was not a prominent folk instrument, AFAIK, in Eastern Anatolian Armenian villages. It is possible that some of the Yezidi Kurdish minority living in Armenia plays oud...

Is Crete colored in? I don't remember Crete having much of an oud culture.

Jonathan - 4-9-2009 at 04:46 PM

Oh, come on! If there are no oud players in Armenia, how do you explain oud builders in Armenia?
Examples: Sarkis Chirikdjian, based in Yerevan.
Bedros Kazakian, also based in Yerevan
Stepan Payaslyan, based in Yerevan, recently deceased (2007)

Is the oud as prominent in Eastern Armenia as it is in Western Anatolia? Probably not, but to state that the oud is not a part of that culture is absurd.

eliot - 4-9-2009 at 09:14 PM

Jonathan, do you know of examples of oud players currently living and playing in Armenia? I'd be very interested to hear what music they're creating. When watching Yerevan TV on satellite when I was in Turkey, I saw a ton of accordions and button accordions, and plenty of evidence of balalaikas but not a single oud. An Istanbul-Armenian friend of mine did doctoral field research in Yerevan in search of Armenian oud culture and came back empty handed. I think he "found" Sarkis, but not much else. Why so underground?

I have also never come across any historical mention of oud in Eastern Anatolian Armenian villages; rather, it was played by Armenians in urban musics, most notably in Antep, to a lesser extent in Erzurum (1-2 fasil orchestras).

Edward Powell - 4-9-2009 at 11:54 PM

kenya?
malaysia?

PLEASE SEND CLIP LINKS! THIS IS VERY INTERESTING!


crete?

THIS IS QUESTIONABLE. . .


armenia?

GENOCIDE BRAIN DRAIN? COULD IT BE THAT THERE USED TO BE AN OUD CULTURE THERE AND THAT IN THE LAST 80 YEARS OR SO ARMENIA HAS REJECTED "TURKISH" THINGS AND PERHAPS MANY TALENTED ARTISTS LEFT? WHY THEN DID SO MANY ARMENIAN EX-PATS CHOOSE THE OUD AS THEIR INSTRUMENT?

azeri?
mauritania?

I GUESS THESE ARE OUT?

below SUDAN, what specific countries should be included - and is there documentation?

maran - 4-10-2009 at 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by eliot
Jonathan, do you know of examples of oud players currently living and playing in Armenia? I'd be very interested to hear what music they're creating. When watching Yerevan TV on satellite when I was in Turkey, I saw a ton of accordions and button accordions, and plenty of evidence of balalaikas but not a single oud. An Istanbul-Armenian friend of mine did doctoral field research in Yerevan in search of Armenian oud culture and came back empty handed. I think he "found" Sarkis, but not much else. Why so underground?

I have also never come across any historical mention of oud in Eastern Anatolian Armenian villages; rather, it was played by Armenians in urban musics, most notably in Antep, to a lesser extent in Erzurum (1-2 fasil orchestras).


Eliot that was interesting to me (esp. fasil orchestras in Erzerum), where did you get that information from? btw I think Richard H.'s family was from there. I'm sure in somewhere like Kayseri they had it too.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
Oh, come on! If there are no oud players in Armenia, how do you explain oud builders in Armenia?
Examples: Sarkis Chirikdjian, based in Yerevan.
Bedros Kazakian, also based in Yerevan
Stepan Payaslyan, based in Yerevan, recently deceased (2007)

Is the oud as prominent in Eastern Armenia as it is in Western Anatolia? Probably not, but to state that the oud is not a part of that culture is absurd.


i wouldn't be surprised if these guys subsist on diasporans who visit the "homeland" thinking that people play ud there, because they themselves are of anatolian extraction and therefore think of the ud as an armenian instrument. anyway there is a lot more to be said on this topic but this probably isn't the right place for it. the bottom line is i think we make the mistake of thinking we necessarily have something in common with other people just because we call ourselves the same thing. the history is so complex and people are so spread out that it's impossible to find something that stays constant over space and time. so i just think there is whatever exists at any given place and time and you can try to understand why it is that way based on information about the context (even the makams have changed, some have fallen out of use and some have even changed entirely from just 100 years ago). me for example i think the topic of music and istanbul is interesting because of the confluence of cultures that existed there over the centuries, but i don't think this tells me anything about armenians in van for example, and today that multi-ethnic society is basically gone. naturally i like to know about the armenians who made their mark (just like mavrothis is probably interested in the greeks, walter feldman is interested in jews, etc.). isn't it interesting that bimen sen, who became one of the great composers in turkish classical music, was discovered as a child singing in an armenian church in bursa by haci arif bey, who then brought him to istanbul. when i listen to some of his şarkı's i can almost hear the armenian hymns. this is not in order to say "look what armenians contributed to the turkish culture!", but rather to see that we have something in common with people that are supposed to be different from us. i like the fact that because i have studied turkish classical music somewhat, now when i listen to hymns sung in church i can recognize the makam it is being sung in. i would have never thought to pay attention to something like that before (unless maybe i had been exposed to the octoechos system or something). but the point is, other people have created their music from the same set of these beautiful modes, which means: we do not live in a vacuum. the one time i went to armenia they had a festival called "meg azk, meg mshaguyt" going on - "one nation, one culture". at the time i thought, nice idea but this has no historical basis whatsoever. if you think about it armenians in armenia today are very different from the rest of us because they live in a nearly mono-ethnic, mono-linguistic, and mono-religious society, and that is totally different from the way armenians lived for the vast majority their history.

anyway i said i was going to put up a clip of jack baghsarian, who was not on that list. this is from one of those belly dance LPs that was recorded here in the US. he has a nice solo around the 0:51 mark. unfortunately the liner notes don't indicate the personnel but the clarinet player is supposed to be greek and is fantastic. does anyone recognize him from his playing?

http://www.box.net/shared/pnxjy5ftkq

DaveH - 4-10-2009 at 01:15 AM

Good morning from the latest oud colony (or Londonistan, as the Bangladeshis call it).

I agree the youtube criterion isn't really valid, but even so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6kP2xt-1aw

I've been looking for a reasonably priced recording of Zein L'Abdin for a long time - anyone with any idea, please tell me. So that takes care of Kenya (Mombassa). It's definitely widespread on the Tanzanian coast (well Zanzibar mainly, but the oud definitely exists in Dar, Kilwa etc). None for mozambique yet, but, as I say, I've seen it.

But given how central trade and migration were to the middle east in history, you're going to find the oud everywhere (don't forget Malaysia!), even if it's not so common any more.

In this case, rather than getting too caught up in maps, maybe it's better to refer to it as an "Empire of the Mind", the phrase Michael Axworthy uses as the title of a recent book on Iran. I think it applies very well to our Oudistan.

DaveH - 4-10-2009 at 01:20 AM

Just to add to the Zein l'Abdin post:

http://www.busaramusic.org/database/artists.php?whereartistlike=Zei...

I heard one of his recordings once (the Swahili songbook) and have been looking for an affordable copy ever since. Any tips gratefully appreciated. He has a fantastic style.

DaveH - 4-10-2009 at 02:00 AM

Maran, what a fantastic post. I hadn't read it before I made those last two. What you say about Armenians applies to us all (there is, for example, a really, really brain-dead debate going on in the UK at the moment about how we need to be clearer on what it means to be British). This is sort of what I had in mind when I used the phrase "Empire of the Mind".

Kudos to you!

Edward Powell - 4-10-2009 at 04:22 AM

Ok Folks...

here is the second version.
any quiries?

Ararat66 - 4-10-2009 at 04:24 AM

Hi Maran

Thats a wicked solo:D

Leon

Butrous - 4-10-2009 at 09:10 AM

A more systematic approach might produce different coloration of your chart. It will be impossible to obtain empirical evidence, none the less it would be interesting to speculate on the following for each country on your map:

1. How many ouds exist per capita?

2. How many ouds exist per household?

3. How many active oud makers exist per one million citizens.

4. How many ouds are exported per year?

5. How many ouds are imported per year?

6. How many recordings were made in the last 25 years which feature the oud as a dominant instrument in a solo performance or in a group with less than 6 members?

7. How many instrument stores exist that sell a range of quality ouds?

8. How many performers sing while playing the oud?

9. How many composers use the oud as their primary instrument?

eliot - 4-10-2009 at 09:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Butrous
A more systematic approach might produce different coloration of your chart. It will be impossible to obtain empirical evidence, none the less it would be interesting to speculate on the following for each country on your map:

How many ouds exist per capita?

How many ouds exist per household?

How many active oud makers exist per one million citizens.

How many ouds are exported per year?

How many ouds are imported per year?

How many recordings were made in the last 25 years which feature the oud as a dominant instrument in a solo performance or in a group with less than 6 members?

How many instrument stores exist that sell a range of quality ouds?

How many performers sing while playing the oud?

How many composers use the oud as their primary instrument?

We should petition the UN, or perhaps the CIA (who manages the "CIA world factbook") to insist that these statistics are included alongside those less important numbers like GDP, infant mortality rates, etc.

Marina - 4-10-2009 at 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bpcNORD
Here's a list of "famous" oud players:
In Morocco:

Tarik Banzi
Ahmed El Bidaoui
Said Chraybi
Driss El Maloumi

Armand Sabach

In Palestine:

Le trio Joubran
Simon Shaheen
Ahmad Al-Khatib
Issa Boulos [6]
Nizar Rohana
Samer Totah [7]
Adel Salameh
Kamilya Jubran
Haytham Safia (Palestine/Netherlands)

I think the Armenians are well represented in Oudland!


Armand Sabach - he lives in Israel, not Marocco ;-),
so does Yair Delal, Taiseer Elias, etc....


::
Quote:
Originally posted by bpcNORD
Here's a list of "famous" oud players:
In Morocco:

Tarik Banzi
Ahmed El Bidaoui
Said Chraybi
Driss El Maloumi

Armand Sabach

In Palestine:

Le trio Joubran
Simon Shaheen
Ahmad Al-Khatib
Issa Boulos [6]
Nizar Rohana
Samer Totah [7]
Adel Salameh
Kamilya Jubran
Haytham Safia (Palestine/Netherlands)

I think the Armenians are well represented in Oudland!


Armand Sabach - he lives in Israel, not Marocco ;-),
so does Yair Delal, Taiseer Elias, etc....

Butrous - 4-10-2009 at 11:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Butrous
A more systematic approach might produce different coloration of your chart. It will be impossible to obtain empirical evidence, none the less it would be interesting to speculate on the following for each country on your map:

1. How many ouds exist per capita?

2. How many ouds exist per household?

3. How many active oud makers exist per one million citizens.

4. How many ouds are exported per year?

5. How many ouds are imported per year?

6. How many recordings were made in the last 25 years which feature the oud as a dominant instrument in a solo performance or in a group with less than 6 members?

7. How many instrument stores exist that sell a range of quality ouds?

8. How many performers sing while playing the oud?

9. How many composers use the oud as their primary instrument?


My guess is that the top ranking countries for each metric would be:

1. and 2. Kuwait then Iraq

3. Turkey, Syria then Iraq

4. Turkey, Egypt then Syria as largest exporters

5. Lebanon, then the Gulf States as largest importers

6. Yemen then Kuwait

7. Turkey then Egypt

8. Yemen

9. Yemen

rojaros - 4-11-2009 at 11:40 PM

There seems to be some oud tradition in Kenya ( http://folkmusicsmb.blogspot.com/2008/03/swahili-song-book-zein-lab... ) - I don't know how much of it still exists

best wishes
Robert

Where the Oud is played....

Christian1095 - 4-20-2009 at 12:02 PM

I think you're far too narrow in your scope... Here is a true map of the influence of this instrument.

arsene - 4-25-2009 at 06:31 AM

Maybe Andalucia (Spain) should be included too, or at least as a "permanent observer" :)

Also, you might consider making Romania a sattelite state, since one of the romanian folk instuments is the cobza: "The Romanian cobza is a local adaptation of the Persian Barbat or Turkish oud, brought to the area by itinerant Gypsy musicians in the 15th century. A cobza player is called a lăutar (= lute player)." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koboz).

Especially if you consider the older versions of the instrument - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cobza1.gif

Andy - 6-4-2009 at 06:32 AM

I have to put in my 2 cents on this. I did not see these Armenian American oud players like Leo Derderian, Richie Berberian, Mal Barsamian, Eli Nazarian, Harry Bedrosian, Joe Kouyoumjian, all excellent players.
On my site I show a picture of my Movses Bedros Keshishian oud made in Yerevan, Armenian. So, we can add another oud maker to the list.

Edward Powell - 6-4-2009 at 07:35 AM

For me OUD, for some reason is synonymous with "makam", or "non-12tone music". Sure the boundaries of oud-land can be stretched - but this stretching I feel ought to always be qualified...

I would say a country is a fully "oud-land" country when the traditional music heavily uses makam and microtones...

Marina - 6-5-2009 at 05:12 AM

Actally, I have to admit, Armenian oud players are my FAVORITES.

:D

The map of Oudistan deels with this life, but, what if I was an Armenian in the past life?

:))

Bosnia is not on the map.
:shrug:

Edward Powell - 6-5-2009 at 07:06 AM

is there an oud tradition in Bosnia?? :)

Ararat66 - 6-5-2009 at 09:20 AM

Well Marina

I am half Armenian in this life !!! and I love oud ... so maybe I was an oud in a past life. What sort of oud though??

Leon:applause:

Marina - 6-5-2009 at 09:29 AM

No oud in Bosnia, just saz. Probably, when the Turks were there there were more ouds. Today, I am the only one. ;-)

Ararat66 - 6-6-2009 at 01:43 AM

Marina

If you are the only oud in Bosnia surely that puts Bosnia on the map of Oudistan :buttrock:

Leon

Edward Powell - 6-6-2009 at 10:13 AM

Does that mean Czech deserves to be on also.....?? :shrug:

Ararat66 - 6-6-2009 at 01:02 PM

Too right my friend ... and if there is anyone playng in Hawaii ... well why not?

Leon

Edward Powell - 6-6-2009 at 11:29 PM

I know you are joking, but in truth, there is a lot of truth in what you say - because there really is not much of a concentration anymore (except Istanbul) and some really excellent players are scattered around everywhere -

- and perhaps more importantly if we think in terms of the whole world being "oudland" maybe there will be a greater chance of the oud truly developing and being appreciated the world over?

Ararat66 - 6-7-2009 at 04:27 AM

I am only half joking and really don't mean to trivialise you very interesting thread (its been a long week!!).

I suppose there comes a point when a musical form reaches a critical mass of awareness to become something that isn't just a curiosity , so Oudistan would generally be seen to range across North Africa, the Near and middle East and round to the west as far as Greece. There will be lots of pockets with all of us being the island wherever we may be.

Leon

arsene - 8-7-2009 at 02:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Marina  
Actally, I have to admit, Armenian oud players are my FAVORITES.



I agree!

Mortys - 8-8-2009 at 12:16 PM

Hi everybody,

Well, in Farsi ,Iran, -istan means province, and once it has been all Persian empire. Maybe because of that.
The origin of Oud is sofar known from Mesopotamia and later Persia and in perticular Iran. And ofcourse through years has been changed in his form and structure by Arabs and Turks and other nations.
So i think the true original map would be the map of Great Persia of some 2500 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbat_(lute)

But as we all know, now we live in a world without borders, fortunately, atleast in music.
MUSIC RULES
MUSIC IS LOVE
:buttrock:

arsene - 8-8-2009 at 03:34 PM

Yes, it has been taken and adapted into other cultures, but that has been so long ago that by now it has become part of those cultures. So now, 2500 years later, Oudistan may well be the biggest empire the world has ever known :)