| Pages:
1
2 |
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi - As requested earlier, here's a picture of my lavta, with a few friends, as it were, that came along for the ride... The lavta is in the centre,
of course. On the extreme left is the Cretan Lyra, then a chinese erhu, a thai rebab on the immediate right of the lavta, a morin ghuur (Mongolian)
on the far right, and a kemence in front. All of these are bowed instruments except for the lavta (my early background is in classical piano and
violin and I guess it shows...).
I've got a recording of this particular lavta, mixed in fairly prominently with a band and vocalist. I've still got a few technical issues to
resolve, but hopefully I'll be able to put it up within a week or so. Speaking of which, this is my first picture post, and I'm not feeling really
confident about whether it will work - please let me know (and give advice..) if it doesn't.
Mark
|
|
|
bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for the photo Mark! Really interesting to see it with those exotic instruments.
Could I get one more measurement off you? That is the distance between the nut and the neck/body joint (following a striaght line through the middle,
not the tapered edge).
Thanks again,
Scott
|
|
|
al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Scott,
Just wanted to mention that the lavta's fingerboard is a full octave, and therefore the neck/body joint will be at the exact middle point of the
vibrating string. So if you know what vibrating string length you want the instrument to have, the distance between the nut and neck/body joint would
be half of that scale length.
Good luck with your project.
|
|
|
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi. Scott, it's 11 and 1/2 inches from nut to the highest fret (when playing, ie., closest to the bridge) then another little bit, between 1/8 and
1/4 inch to where the resonator/body begins.
Though it's close, this measurement falls short of the 12.5 inches you'd expect by dividing the resonating string length by half, as Al Halabi
suggests. However, though they didn't follow it exactly, whoever built this instrument was doubtlessly aware of the custom of including a playable
octave through the proportions in question. The octave occurs just above (toward the pegs) the lowest point of the dark "v" you can see near the
juncture of fingerboard and body, at exactly 12.5" down. The tip of the "v" is at about 12 3/4 " from the nut. The "v" is pretty clearly
intended as a reference mark for the octave (I've been finding the octave by ear, and hadn't really paid attention to this until now).
Though in theory it would be easier to play if the neck were a little longer, proportionately to the body, I haven't felt that there's been an issue
reaching the octave using the present dimensions, and I've been able to play notes even farther up the soundboard. I think the instrument builder
may have been trading off comfort on reaching the octave in order to get just a little more manageable stretch between fingers when playing closer to
the nut. As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, that stretch sometimes gets uncomfortably large, at least for me, in passages when you
can't use an open string, in the CGDA tuning. I would think that using a DADA tuning reduces the problem, but wouldn't get rid of it entirely.
The compromise in my instrument allows a shorter neck while maintaining string length (I'm not an acoustician, but my impression is that, in general,
longer string length usually translates to a fuller sound).
If your wife is going to be the primary player, and she has smallish hands like my wife does, that might be a rationale for going with a relatively
short neck version.... Anyway, good luck, I can't wait to see the finished product....
I know this message is pretty long already, but one last thing - I've got myself up to where I think I can post a sound clip of the instrument in
question. This is an extract from a live performance of Three Brides for Kasos, a play our choir/theatre group put on in June and July this year.
Assuming the post works (I'm bolder now that the photo worked yesterday) you should be able to hear the Lavta pretty clearly at the beginning, and in
the up-tempo section. It's being played in this case by Theo Kyriakopoulos (I'm on piano). The play is set in the Greek islands, and the song, a
traditional one in Greek, roughly translates as "I need two hearts". The bowed strings you can hear are a combination of Cretan lyra (see the
picture above) played by my wife Crystal, and conventional violin, played by Debbbie Smythe of the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra (our hired gun, for
this show). The singer is Susan Lethbridge, a pop and folk singer from my home town of Flin Flon, with no Greek background prior to doing this
show. Anyway, I'm really proud of our group, who put their heart and soul into this, so I hope you'll forgive me running on.... Mark
|
|
|
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well, guess my luck ran out. I'll try posting the sound file again...
|
|
|
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Help!.... File's probably too big. Maybe Mike or one of the other site administrators can suggest something - my regular e-mail is
mkolt@city.flinflon.mb.ca. Thanks.... Mark
|
|
|
Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: Medford, Oregon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Turkish Lavta
Udi Necati Çelik keeps two lavtas in his home, and took one down and played it for me a few years ago. He was better than any of the lavta players
that I've ever seen, some of whom occasionally tour with Turkish ensembles to the U.S. He was very modest about it, and brushed off my complements,
insisting that he is just "playing ud on lavta." However, in fact he uses different technique on lavta, which has frets and is tuned in 5ths. (I have
seen other lavta players tune it in 4ths to facilitate ud fingerings and an easier reach, but Necati is quite comfortable in 5ths.) It has a different
resonance and a different feeling from ud, and Necati really gets into it. His familiarity with frets may come from playing saz as he grew up---he's
still an excellent saz player.
When I protested that he certainly did not sound like he was playing ud, but seemed to be able to tune into the unique energy of the lavta, he mused
that perhaps he could practice for a couple of weeks and do a recording. However, we never spoke of it again, and I'm sure he'd rather just forget
about it.
The performer playing with Devya Turkan in Letter from Istanbul is Greek. Is he playing Turkish lavta or the big Greek metal-strung lavta?
|
|
|
mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
Member Is Offline
Mood: big band envy
|
|
Hi Hank,
Sokratis Sinopoulos is playing lavta (not the Greek steel string laouto) and kemence on this album. Those are his main instruments (kemence and
various folk lyras being his first I think, but he is very accomplished on the lavta as well). 
Hope you guys enjoy the album, it's a compilation of pieces that are shared by the Turkish and Greek traditions. It is a very big deal for me and for
many others that this revival is getting stronger and stronger in Greece. The oud and kanun seminars organized by Ross Daly in Crete were packed when
I was there, and everyone left very inspired and I'd say spiritually uplifted. Unfortunately, the Greeks in the US are less atuned to these changes,
but in time I hope they come around as well.
Take care,
mavrothis
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
I'd like to add to this discussion by mentioning that there is a new instrument (since 2002) being introduced in Iran by Maestro Alizadeh, who has
been a prominent face in Iranian music since the 1970s.
The instrument is called "Sallaneh." It has an oud-like body (much samller) and a fretted long neck that resembles a persian Tar. It has 12 strings, 6
are the main strings and 6 of are sympathetic.
The reason for building it, Alizadeh says, is that most plucked persian instruments seem incomplete and lack depth when it comes to having bass sounds
and he hopes to add an original solution to this problem, an instrument with greater octave span.
In my opinion, Sallaneh sounds like a weak turkish Tanbur or a Divan (somewhat nasal). Personally I don't like the way it sounds, as much as I like
the sound of a turkish tanbur. Many people share my opinion as well. One obvious reason is that fingernails are used to play and I think a plectrum
would make a bigger difference specially on bass strings.
Alizadeh has also been using 2 other newly invented instruments called "Shurangiz" and "Gharibaneh." Shurangiz is a basically a 6-string cogur (much
like a baglama) but played with a fingernail and Gharibaneh is the same but the soundboard is a combination of mulberry and lamb skin, still played
with fingernails.
Here are 2 pics of Sallaneh:
|
|
|
bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for the measurements, Al-Halabi and Mark.
Al-Halabi, does the ancient replica also have a full octave? (I thiink I'm going to go with a contemporary model, but I'm curious)
Mark, I hope to have her learn some Lavta, but it's going to be mine, and I have fairly large hands. (after a time with her lute, I imagine she will
want to play it too). You right about longer scale/ fuller sound. A longer scale (same gauge, same tuning, higher tension) will have more sustain,
volume and attack. I hope you can get the soundfile working, I really look forward to hearing it. By the way, do you every play outside of Manitoba?
Thanks for the info on the Sallaneh Peyman! I scour the internet looking to learn about unusual instruments and this on is totally new to me!
Regards,
Scott
PS I'll start a new thread when the build is underway, it is going to take a couple more months to finish the lute though.
|
|
|
al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Scott,
You are welcome. My larger lavta with the 28" scale length does have a fingerboard with a full octave.
The highest fret, which produces the octave, sits exactly on the neck/body joint (14" from the nut or the bridge). It's the same with my other lavta.
So unlike Mark's lavta, the neck/body joint in my two instruments is right at the middle point of the resonating string.
I should say that the larger lavta has a beautiful deep timbre that comes in part from the longer scale.
|
|
|
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Scott,
All the best to your wife, I hope she really enjoys the lute, and lavta, too, in time....She sounds like a neat lady...
You asked about whether I perform out of province - yeah, it happens all the time, but I have a bit of an unfair advantage in that respect, because my
home town of Flin Flon is situated right on the border of Manitoba and Saskatchewan. There are literally streets that are in Manitoba on one side,
and Saskatchewan on the other, and a ball diamond where, due to one province having daylight savings time and the other not, you can hit a foul ball
and have it land, technically, an hour later than when it was hit....
Seriously though, I would love to tour more, but it happens fairly rarely, and when it does, it's a pretty big deal, given the size of group my wife
and I are dealing with. It started out as a conventional choir, and it still does that sort of thing - when it does, Crystal conducts, and I
accompany on the piano. We've been able to participate in a number of massed choir concerts in other cities - for example, we're doing Beethoven's
Ninth with the Saskatoon Symphony and a number of other Saskatoon choirs this coming March, 2006. This year, we toured a musical theatre production
for the first time, taking our Greek themed play, Three Brides for Kasos, to the Winnipeg Fringe for a ten day run. We did OK, second highest
attendance out of the 136 acts at the Fringe, but even so, we relied on a pretty massive private donation to make ends meet, what with a cast of 22
onstage and 8 musicians....You get the picture, to make something work on that scale, the stars really have to be aligned right....We'd like to take
the play to Toronto, where I understand the Greek community is 200,000 +, but I don't have any meaningful contacts there yet, and there's a lot of
work to be done before we could pull something like that off.
Do you tour yourself? If so, please consider sending me a package of what you do... Among other things one does to further one's musical interests
in a smaller community, Crystal and I have worked extensively with our local Arts Council to bring in musical acts....Even if you don't tour
professionally, you're welcome anytime to Flin Flon as a guest for a jam....It's a nice, resort-like place in summer, and we've got great
cross-country ski-ing in winter, fishing, that sort of stuff....No mountains, but lots of trees and lakes and small rocky hills (no hint of the great
plains here). Let me know about what part of British Columbia you're in, sometime...
Take care, Mark
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
| Quote: | | Thanks for the info on the Sallaneh Peyman! I scour the internet looking to learn about unusual instruments and this on is totally new to me!
|
You're welcome. The reason why I posted this is because of the fact that the Sallaneh looks very much like a Lavta. As I said before, it's supposedly
based on pictures of a Barbat.
|
|
|
Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
|
|
Hey guys,
Nice thread, and nice work Scott on your instruments. Your wife is a lucky lady. 
Here's a file Kasos sent to put up in this thread.
Take care,
Mike
|
|
|
bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by kasos
Do you tour yourself? If so, please consider sending me a package of what you do... Among other things one does to further one's musical interests
in a smaller community, Crystal and I have worked extensively with our local Arts Council to bring in musical acts....Even if you don't tour
professionally, you're welcome anytime to Flin Flon as a guest for a jam....It's a nice, resort-like place in summer, and we've got great
cross-country ski-ing in winter, fishing, that sort of stuff....No mountains, but lots of trees and lakes and small rocky hills (no hint of the great
plains here). Let me know about what part of British Columbia you're in, sometime... |
I have not been in a band for a few years now. I'm in Port Alberni, it's on Vancouver Island.
I see that Mike has posted the file you mention, yet I don't see a link to the file, am I the only one?
|
|
|
Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
|
|
oops...let's try that one more time. 
|
|
|
bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Great piece Mark! Is the lavta the only stringed instument present in the begining of the song? My ears are new to quarter tones, am I imagining
things, or did the piano play a few early in the piece? Was that Greek she was singing?
|
|
|
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Scott
Yes, she's singing in Greek - the play this number is drawn from is set in the Greek Islands (Kasos, a small Island near Crete, to be specific). The
story line involves a young man who, by misadventure, finds himself engaged to two women on the same day (hence, "...two hearts...", the subject of
the song, which, by the way, predates the play itself).
As to clarifications on the instrumentation you're hearing, Lavta is playing the tune, and is up front in the mix, especially at the outset, and at
the very end, although it's also prominent in the up-tempo section. The only other plucked string you'll hear distinctly is guitar, which is
chording (mostly droning, at first). Bowed strings include both the traditional Cretan lyra (played on the lap), and the conventional western
European violin (shoulder held, but which also has a history of being used in Greek folk music). The piano isn't actually doing any quarter tones
here - although I'm very fond of eastern-influenced modal playing, and this tune reflects that, in this case I was using an electronic instrument
that simply doesn't do microtones without special intervention, and I didn't use the pitch bend feature. On the other hand, it's stylistically
appropriate for the bowed strings to scoop and slide around a bit, especially the lyra - it may be that as a result you're getting a bit of a sense
of mutable pitch from the ensemble as a whole - however, I think this is pretty consistent with the sort of traditional sound we were going for, and
it has its own particular charm...I'm glad you enjoyed the piece... All the best, Mark
|
|
|
bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Al-Halabi, could you please tell me the lowest note on each of your lavtas?
Thanks,
Scott
|
|
|
al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It's D on the smaller instrument and C on the longer one.
|
|
|
oudplayer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 849
Registered: 5-9-2004
Location: new jersey/ Israel
Member Is Offline
Mood: ouds up
|
|
hey
nice song
thx sammy
|
|
|
kasos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 148
Registered: 4-21-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks, sammy. I'll pass it on to the singer & other players. Take care...Mark
|
|
|
bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks again Al-Halabi !
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
