Meursault
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Need info on Syrian Oud Maker
I bought an oud off of Ebay the other day. The label says Fouad A. Salka, and Damascas, Syria in French. The rosettes are genuine ivory, and it
appears to be at least seventy years old. It's a bit damaged, so it needs some work, but it was a steal at $102! Any info would be appreciated.
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david
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 Love to see some pics
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spyrosc
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Syrian Oud Maker
I saw that oud on eBay too, and tried to analyze the style and the rosettes, etc. It was obviously Syrian, but I couldn't cross-reference it to
any well-known maker. Obviously the label was not visible in the pictures.
I looked up my notes but don't have a Salka. Is there any way you could take a picture of the inside label and send it to me ? Especially if it
is in Arabic as well as French. I could probably tell you the exact date of manufacture and maybe some more detail.
I noticed there were a couple of breaks in the back and some of the edge trim was missing. Is somebody going to restore it for you ?
Let me know.
Thanks
Spyros C.
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Meursault
Oud Junkie
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re: Need Info on Syrian Oud Maker
I'm posting the picture the Ebay seller took, as my digital camera is on the blink. The label is a little hard to see through the rosette, but
I'll try to take a photo when I get a chance. I plan on sending it to Najarian. He's already restoring a Gamil Georges that I bought
(estimated to be from the 50's to early 60's), and I own a Najarian-made oud as well.
There's some pencil writing on the label, too, and what I think are Arabic numerals. Maybe this is the year it was made. I'll do some
research. Thanks for all the help!
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Brian Prunka
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Meursault, congrats on the new oud--I bet it'll be great when you get it restored. I suggest that you consider having Najib Shaheen restore
it (theoudman.com). I recently played a Gamil Georges he restored and it was incredible. Nothing against Najarian, but if I was in your shoes,
I'd have Shaheen restore the oud (btw, I play a Najarian). just my couple of cents.
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Mike
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Hey Brian,
What makes you say that? I have recently taken my Farouk oud to Viken to reset the neck. I have seen his restoration work, and he is one of the best
in terms of keeping the original qualities of the oud he is working on. Look at this thread to see a picture of a Georgy he worked on.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=544
I think that's an amazing job, considering all the inlay work he had to do over. Anyway, just wondering why you would recommend Najeeb over
Viken.
Thanks,
Mike
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Meursault
Oud Junkie
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Here's another picture for your perusal.
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Brian Prunka
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First, let me say that I think Najarian does excellent work and that I don't want to get in an argument over this--it's just my opinion.
Najarian work looks really good, but I think Najib has a deeper understanding of the acoustics of the instrument. My experience has been that Najib
knows how to get the best sound out of an instrument when restoring it, and I'm more concerned about sound than looks. well-done inlays are nice
(and Najib replaced the inlay as well as made beautiful new rosettes for the Georges I saw--I wish I had a picture to show you), but don't affect
the sound. Najarian doesn't have a particularly good track record with long-term structural stability (I know 4 people with najarians and 3 of
them have had serious structural problems). We've discussed this before and don't really need to go over it again. Overall, I think Najarian
is a good luthier. I don't really want to argue with anyone who thinks that Najarian is the best--we can all voice our opinions.
That said, proximity is a concern, so if I lived in CA, I would most likely have Viken do anything short of a new top. I don't know where
Meursault is located, so it might make more sense for him to go to Najarian. That's why I just suggested he consider Najib, and didn't say
that he should avoid Viken. Sorry if this sounds a little defensive, but people have been tending to get a little hostile about some of these issues
and I just want to be clear.
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Mike
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Hey Brian,
Not arguing, just interested in why you thought that. Hey, we could turn this into an East Coast vs. West Coast thing though. Kinda like Biggie vs.
Tupac. You can be Biggie...I'll be Tupac. Whatdya say? Just kidding man.
Later,
Mike
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Al Billings
Oud Addict
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Brian, I remember that you wrote about having some problems with your Najarian. I seems to me that given the delicacy of the oud, oud builders very
occasionally produce instruments that are flawed. I suspect that when Najib has built as many ouds as Viken has he'll have to fix a few duds.
What would be useful here would be to know whether you personally, or the Narian owners you know gave Viken an opportunity to correct the problems and
if he in fact did correct them. I'm partial because I've seen a lot of Viken's repairs, especially new tops, but Najib has a great
reputation and I'm sure he does fine work or we'd eventually hear about it. Also, it's important to remember that each lutheir has a
distinct sense of tone. Najib and Simon went to visit a Turkish builder and didn't like his work because the ouds had strong harmonic overtones
when they seem to prefer a more fundamental sound. Viken's ouds have a harmonic richness that suit me, but maybe not someone else, so it's
important to discuss that with a luthier before having a top repaired and/or re-braced.
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Jameel
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Al,
This is very interesting. How did you happen upon this info about the Shaheens and the matter of overtones? The oud I built has some overtones, and my
teacher Issa Boulos is a big stickler for NOT liking them. It is the first thing he noticed about my oud. He incidentally plays a Sukar, but it is not
as overtone-free as he would like, I gather. He keeps telling me about tuning the braces like Turunz does to eliminate the overtones, but now that you
made this statement, I'm wondering if you're talking about Turunz. I know that Simon had Turunz make an oud for him, and when I asked him
about it, he wasn't too nuts about T's work. I would love to be able to capture the deep, solid sound of the Nahat ouds, but short of
building dozens of ouds, I am forced to follow books or measurements. I would much rather KNOW how the soundboard/braces work than just make an oud
based on a plan. It's frustrating . By the way, any chance of getting some closer more detailed pics of your Jameel Georgy? I would love to see
them.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Hey Tupac, watch out 'cause you know how this gonna end . . . just kidding, Mike I knew you weren't looking to argue . . .  That was just for anyone else feeling combative.
Al, regarding my Najarian, I didn't have Najarian fix the oud for a few reasons.
1-For the cracks and bowing of the face, the cost of shipping it out to him was prohibitive. I had a local luthier do a temporary fix to keep it from
falling apart, and had Najib fix it when I saw him next. I don't make it out to CA much. When I talked to Viken about it, he certainly
wasn't eager to fix it, though he didn't refuse.
2-Some of the other things that Najib fixed were things that Viken apparently didn't consider "problems", because they existed from the
day I got my oud. Some of these issues were: uneven string projection, unacceptable buzzing of the 2nd and 3rd courses, uneven string spacing, a
really crappy plastic nut.
As far as the other Najarian owners, I'm not sure what they ended up doing. As I recall, they planned to have Najarian fix them. It may be just
an unfortunate coincidence, but it seems odd that the majority of Najarian ouds I've seen have problems.
I really do like my Najarian oud, though, but I like it about twice as much since Najib worked on it. I also feel it was a little overpriced
considering the amount of money it has sucked up just getting it to the point that I feel it should have been when I got it.
It's a good point you make regarding the preference of overtones, Najib usually describes what he aims for as a "focused" or
"tight" sound, without a lot of echo. This seems to be consistent with the Arabic sound. Turkish & Greek ouds do seem to go for the
echo and brilliant overtones. Of course, personal preference is important; I guess I assumed that since Meursault bought a Syrian oud that he wanted
an Arabic sound and might want an Arab luthier to restore it. Also, while Viken is primarily a builder who also restores ouds, Najib primarily
restores ouds, and sometimes builds them. A lot of his "restorations" aren't even really restorations, since he makes the ouds far
better than they were originally, often putting in more work than the original builder. Sort of an "extreme makeover--oud edition".
of course, I haven't compared Viken's restorations to Najib's, so I'm not even saying that Najib does a better job. Just that
Najib is a person to seriously consider if you are restoring an oud, especially if you want an "Arab" sound.
You're right, though, that if someone wants a brighter sound with more of an echo, that doesn't seem to be Najib's preference.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Location: Kansas
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Overtone and Nahat replicas
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jameel
The oud I built has some overtones, |
Hello Jameel,
First of all I compliment you on the nice job you have done building your oud and the way you documented it. Your site has been an encourgement for
me to build my own oud and shell out the money to buy Dr. oud's book.
I will be frequently visiting your site for refernce as I build a Nahat replica this Summer based on the details in Dr. Oud's book.
Is the oud, you are refering to in your post, the same one you built based on Dr. Oud's book? If so, is it not supposed to sound like a Nahat
since the measurements I assume are the same for the braces? Or did you do something slightly different than an exact replica as far as the essential
acoustic componets go?
I guess there might be more to it than just copying measurements, since the wood densities and some other such factors may play an important role in
these subtle sound diferences!
I plan to one day figure these things out. This way hopefuly the sound of an oud can be duplicated precisely. My start will be Dr. Ouds book and
your site and go from there.
Your answers will be a great help for me because I also prefer the deeper sound signature of an oud.
Thanks.
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Meursault
Oud Junkie
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Location: Nashville, TN
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Thanks for all the responses. This has been quite a generative
discussion! As for Najarian, I think he's a fine luthier, and I've had a number of teachers remark on the balance and weight of his ouds - a
"feel" that they admire. I used to live in SoCal, so he was the most convenient luthier for me. I can't speak for Najib's work. I
tend to think the issue comes down to more than a matter of one being better than the other. These are artists we're talking about, after all.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jameel
The oud I built has some overtones, |
Hello Jameel,
First of all I compliment you on the nice job you have done building your oud and the way you documented it. Your site has been an encourgement for
me to build my own oud and shell out the money to buy Dr. oud's book.
(Jameel) Thanks, Elie. The book is worth more than he asks!
I will be frequently visiting your site for refernce as I build a Nahat replica this Summer based on the details in Dr. Oud's book.
(Jameel) Good luck. Keep us posted as to your progress.
Is the oud, you are refering to in your post, the same one you built based on Dr. Oud's book? If so, is it not supposed to sound like a Nahat
since the measurements I assume are the same for the braces? Or did you do something slightly different than an exact replica as far as the essential
acoustic componets go?
(Jameel)I did not follow Dr. Oud's book 100%. I used some info I got from Najib Shaheen plus some other sources. My oud ended up
with a shorter (59cm) scale than I would have liked. It's actually more of a Turkish oud. Issa Boulos even said I should tune it Turkish when he
played it. I don't know why it has overtones.
I guess there might be more to it than just copying measurements, since the wood densities and some other such factors may play an important role in
these subtle sound diferences!
(Jameel)Absoluetly!! The Nahats KNEW what made ouds sound a certain way. Short of learning from a Nahat (right!) all we can do is
copy their patterns and learn with trial and error and many instruments just what exactly makes the sound we want. The best thing we have is
Richard's book, which, thank God, is based on a Nahat. I don't think we could be any luckier to have Richard's work and his willingness
to share it.
I plan to one day figure these things out. This way hopefuly the sound of an oud can be duplicated precisely. My start will be Dr. Ouds book and
your site and go from there.
(Jameel)I wish all the best for your project.
Your answers will be a great help for me because I also prefer the deeper sound signature of an oud.
(Jameel)I wish my oud sounded deeper and without so many echoes. Like Simon Shaheen's or Farid's. Maybe the next one will
sound better.
Thanks. |
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Al Billings
Oud Addict
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Jameel, I don't own the Georges oud--it's my teacher's. I've had other requests for closeups. Next time I have a chance I'll
get some photos.
I'd rather not mention the name of the luthier who's ouds the Shaheen's didn't care for. He's not around to take part in
the discussion.
It's interesting to me how little discussion there is concerning top voicing and overtones of ouds and how much control a good builder can
have over the sound. A friend of mine is having Turunz build him an oud, and Turunz has asked him how he wants it voiced. Here is what turunz wrote to
my friend.
"Thank you so much for your kind reply. I would like to explain part of my sound
designing method to you. First, I need to have an idea about the desired tonality.
Although the daily terms we use to define the sound features are not objective and
can cause to confusion and misinterpretation, I have long been accustomed to convert
them in to physical terms. If the desired tonality is not virtual and can be
attributed to an instrument's sound then my task is so simple. I understand that
your preference is a sound like Yurdal's oud's sound.
It is possible to assign a physically described tonality to the instrument at the
planning stage. If the base character is preferred then the braces are tuned to some
particular frequencies which make the soundboard gain re-flexibility and tendency
to resonate dominantly by the first three harmonics. If the fourth, fifth and the
sixth harmonics are more powerful than the first three, the overall tonality becomes
gradually baritone, tenor and soprano.
Any further descriptive suggestion you make will help me to modify my design and
make me happy as well.
All the best for you,
Faruk
Why don't you write Turunz and ask him how to get the sound you're looking for? I'll bet he'll tell you.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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100% Agree!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jameel
(Jameel) Thanks, Elie. The book is worth more than he asks!..................The best thing we have is Richard's book, which,
thank God, is based on a Nahat. I don't think we could be any luckier to have Richard's work and his willingness to share it.
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I 100% agree. My thoughts exactly.
Elie
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walkad
Oud Junkie
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Location: Sweden
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About Najeeb Salka
It happened that I was in damascus in april and I saw a music instrument shop in Al-Hamidiyeh bazar owned by someone whos name is Salka, maybe its him
or his relatives..
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