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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Just learnt that the syrian oud of the spanish Museum of Instruments Luis Delgado (see "upstairs") the syrian oud is made by George Haik (Alepo 1914).
They have also a moroccan oud fm the colection of El Ghilawi(1940) -
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
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Zalzal, we have been finding some old ouds scattered in various collections, but very few so far date back even to the nineteenth century, let alone
to an earlier period. I believe that there are probably more nineteenth-century ouds in some public and private collections, but they are likely to be
very few. The nineteenth-century Egyptian oud in Brussels is one of these rare specimens, and one that is particularly interesting to find because it
displays features of eighteenth- and nineteenth-century Egyptian ouds that have since disappeared from standard ouds (7 double courses and a straight
pegbox similar to that on European lutes). If nineteenth-century ouds are so rare, the likelihood of discovering any intact ouds from the eighteenth
century or earlier appears extremely low.
Eckhard Neubauer, one of the leading scholars on the history of Middle Eastern music and the author of a long historical study of the pre-modern oud,
says that the authentic Arab instruments (not necessarily ouds) that have survived in collections do not date back earlier than the eighteenth
century. Jean During, the specialist on Persian music, says the same thing about Persian instruments. For whatever reasons, the Middle East has not
preserved very old instruments as has Europe. Nothing much older than 200 years is known to have survived, and if we find even a couple of ouds that
old it would be an exciting discovery. It would be interesting for us to keep checking what's out there, but we shouldn't expect any big surprises.
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Thanks al Halabi, we will keep checking, who knows, in Tombuctu, there are arabic handwritten treasures on human civilisation still unveiled to public
knowledge.
In any case if few 19th, and even none of 18th instruments fm middle east survived it is mainly because instruments are just the mean which allow
humans to speak the divine language of music. The language is allways there. And the transmission of this divine language is done fm human to human,
instruments are just the tool.
It is more important to learn and keep the memories of an old musician, who himself learnt fm his 19th masters, who themselves learnt fm their 18th
masters etc, than to keep the tool.
So the skill before the tool.....
Well here is a photo of the "oldest oud in egypt". Not dating back to 19th, just one used by Mohamed al Kholai, i think 20th, who by the way i know
little on him
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Django
Oud Addict
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My wife and I went over to the Boston Fine Arts Museum yesterday. Inside glass-enclosed wall displays, there sat the European lute from 1699 and the
beautiful Manol - all strung up and ready to play. Having owned a Manol myself, and knowing what the instrument would feel like and sound like, I
found myself having an overwhelming desire to smash the glass and run away with the instrument! Me..a gentle and peace-loving 63 year old composer! I
can only imagine what a violinist would feel looking at another of the displays that had an Amati violin! Anyhow, I'm continuing my end of the search
for old instruments. I've contacted the orgaqnization started by the donor of the very old oud in the Boston Museum. They're searching records of
their founder's donations to other museums.
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al-Halabi
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Thanks, Zalzal. Is Mohamed al-Kholai related to Kamel al-Kholai, the Egyptian author of "Kitab al-musiqa al-sharqi"? The oud in the photo looks like
an early 20th century instrument. I have one that looks very similar made in 1921.
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zalzal
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Sorry, my mistake, is Kamel el Kholai.
And this is the link where i found the info and the photo
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/718/profile.htm
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al-Halabi
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Thanks for the link. Interesting to hear Abul-Oyun's views about traditional Egyptian music, and to see that al-Kholai's old oud is preserved in good
hands. Abul-Oyun claims that this is "the oldest oud in Egypt." The instrument could be a Nahat; it is in the style of the ouds produced in the early
20th century. Al-Kholai died in 1938 at age 58, and may have acquired this oud in the early years of the 20th century.
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zalzal
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The spanish museum Delgado is creating a virtual museum. Here is the link to the oud.
http://www.funjdiaz.net/museo/ficha.cfm?id=58
(There are lot of pages with world and trad instruments)
In fact is the oud with the five ends star in the three shaped rosettes, the stars are worked on bone.
Ithink they have two ouds in this museum. One by Georges Haik 1914 and this one made on the 30,s.
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Who was the happy buyer of this Abdo Nahat oud dated 1889 ???
http://www.musurgia.com/products.asp?ProductID=1393&CartID=5660...
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Ronny Andersson
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oud/kuitra from the 19th century.
Best wishes
Ronny
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Curious the oud/kwitra posted above by Ronnie, with right pegbox and almost rectangular soundtable, looks like a one-eyed cyclope....
Is this coming fm algeria ??
Here you have an 'oud given to Melissa Coury in 1959 by her grandmather Nezha Masri which is now in a Detroit museum, Naff Arab American
Collection. (Melissa was a talented performer on both the 'ud and classic quiltar).
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by zalzal
Curious the oud/kwitra posted above by Ronnie, with right pegbox and almost rectangular soundtable, looks like a one-eyed cyclope....
Is this coming fm algeria ??
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Zalzal, the owner in UK, told me the oud is Egyptian but that is most likely wrong. I'll ask her to send me some more photos and info. This lute looks
like a Kuitra from Maghreb.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Guys, take a look at the cover of the oud on this book--
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0634077864
A Manol. Unbelievable. The cover folds out so that you can see the entire oud. Loaded with original sedef. Original face. Original purfling. You
get the idea.
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Jameel
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Wow, Jonathan. That is an incredible oud. Not so often you see a Turkish style with so much decoration. Is this one of John's ouds? Do you have the
book? I ordered a copy, but it says it's not released yet...
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Jonathan
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I ordered the book, and they say it shipped yesterday. And I heard that it showed up in a few stores yesterday or the day before.
You have to wonder who an oud like that was made for.
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Jameel
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Who owns this oud?? (the one on John's book)
Just found this http://www.insightsconsulting.biz/Instruments/sold.htm
lot #62. Bears a striking resemblance to an old Abdo Nahat. Also looks to be be quite small
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Jameel didn't you see my post upstairs with this link ?? There are details confirming yr belief that it is an Abdo Nahat. Just i wonder whether the
sound quality could be good or rather not good.
http://www.musurgia.com/products.asp?ProductID=1393&CartID=5660...
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billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
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i'm posting this because (a) this is a fabulous thread and i don't want to see it go and (b) i love looking at old ouds and lutes ... hope you'll
forgive me.
on david parfitt's wonderful site:
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/gallery.html
... he has a photo of a very old kwitra with the following information:
"The next pictures show a North African kwitra (left), purchased by the Institute from Tony Bingham, London. It is thought to date from the 18th
century, judging from comparable instruments in the Royal College, London and Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna."
here's a photo of it:
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/gallery/franke3a.jpg
- bill
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sam81dc
Oud Addict
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I have seen some old ouds in Antique place in Damascus, Syria. , they are in 1800s, Dont think I ever seen any in 1700s. Im looking to buy couple of
them, one of them are made by Nahat.
Some people own old ouds but dont know the value of them.
One guy that I know he ouds music shop downtown of Damascus, said that he offten get people offering him old old for resaonable prices.
I think its not too hard to find old ones if you look in the right place.
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billkilpatrick
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no photo but here's an oud drawing made by eugène delacroix in 1832:
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billkilpatrick
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here's another oldie/oudie:
http://www.locatiantiques.com/navigation-page/display.cfm?IDitem=20...
there are several photos of this much reduced oud - including this:
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SamirCanada
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Looks like a Nahat but the label says otherwise.
I never heard of this maker on the forrums.
its made in 1921 or 1931
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Jonathan
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Wasn't that one on ebay a while back? Who is the maker, Samir?
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al-Halabi
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The maker is the Arja brothers. Part of the place name is torn up, but looks like Tripoli in Lebanon (Trablus Sham).
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billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
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hoping to find a nice, detailed photo of some soulful, ancient oud, gathering dust in a neglected display case in some obscure, out-of-the-way,
middle-eastern museum ... i placed "shamsiya oud" in my google engine and 96 items popped up!!! ...
... 3 of which had nothing to do with ouds at all; 3 came from dr. oud and the remaining 90 hits all came from mike's!
i don't think i can keep this up - cyberspace appears to have failed rather badly with oldie ouds.
- bill
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