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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Mood: Renaissance
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Yes Chris, it sounds good as a student oud, too many weaknesses. It's not homogeneous and I did many experiments on it. But I keep it because this is
my first oud.
I prefer the model 8 which is more serious and I follow my luthier's advices for this one. If I were richer I would have 3 ouds, the first one for the
<3, the second one for experiments and the last one for the best sound !
PS
Polymerized line seed oil should do the same job, this is the polymerization process which import, isn't it ?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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David, probably, but I'm not sure. I'm starting to think that to fully understand this topic is deliberately and very Very effectively impeded by the
manufacturers.
All that really matters is to get a resilient and rather-hard coating that is easy to apply and touch up. That sentence holds more difficult
desiderata than meets the eye. Brittle is bad, as is soft-film like the varnishes in common use on cheap fingerboards. I had good luck with a Tung Oil
product and maybe over-generalized, before I knew just how wide a range of preparations is sold under that name. Boiled linseed oil is cheap and used
ok on rifle stocks but apparently tung + soy is better. The fastest setting mixtures are not as durable, I finally got a good photo I will post, but
it's not a catastrophe, just touch it up sooner.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | | Yes that varnish on the fingerboards just gets in the way. Plain grain alcohol (ethanol) will dissolve some types and acetone will dissolve others.
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What about vaseline intensive care "Mild nail polish remover- WITHOUT aceton"?
I bought and found out that it is without aceton. 
Does that work?
Thanks
DavidB, I agree with Aymara and Fernand about oud model1.
I have some fancy custom made Sukar ouds that are excellent (Not the same as what you find on Palmyrami, for example). Still, my model1 (my oldest
Sukar from 2003, and my "baby"  ) is still "fighing back" :-)
And I am keeping it inspite of the fact that I don't play arab size oud anymore!! I take it out of its case every once in a while, and it keeps on
surprizing me!
But that is said, ouds are individuals!
Now I have 6 Sukar and 4 Nahats and they are all SOOO different!
Enjoy the playing 
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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I have no idea what these solvents contain. I would imagine they may leave residues you don't want. Maybe ask the pharmacist for a little bottle of
each: 90% ethanol and acetone.
Here is a photo of the treated neck on my Sukar where you can barely see the "serpent-skin" wear on the mostly Jasco's finish, and on my Egyptian,
where the wear on the Formby's finish is "whitening". This is after about six months of daily playing on both. It looks on the photo like the
"whitening" is wearing down into the wood but that is an illusion, the whitish wear is only more visible. Both can use a touch up by now, but neither
is anything like the original neck-varnish (that was peeling and exposing raw wood after only a month). You can guess there is likely a plastic resin
in the Formby's that makes it more "crunchy", and the slower-setting Jasco + Japan Drier mixture is probably more flexible and wears down more slowly.
Hard to say if either is really better.
The best fingerboard coating might well be Cyanoacrylate, as long as it's not turning out too hard, but the process intimidates me. I cannot find the
illustrations, but here's the article text:
http://www.bassplayer.com/article.aspx?id=20674
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Again, Thanks 
I am exited about this thing! I am going to do
1-"tung oil" the finger board
2- change the existing BAD NUT by a synthetic plastic (was recommended by a Luthier I know (guitar). p.s. I have already taking out the old nut. It is
horrable the Sukar glues the nut in, like stone!!
3- work on the bridge (I know waht to do now
And all this on my MOST fansy, most expensive Sukar oud.
Whish me luch
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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David.B
Oud Junkie
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Hi Tony,
http://www.hmb-bda.fr/liste-produits.php
"HUILE DE LIN : ordinaire, polymérisée, décolorée"
This is what I found, but I'll ask for more details, by phone, tomorrow...
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David.B
Oud Junkie
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Hi Luttgutt, I know it's out of the subject but would you like to show us the 6 Sukar :
http://www.oudsukar.com/en/products_oud_en.php
And tell us about the different feelings ?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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David, it seems like the outfit you found has many different "vernis". Maybe see if they know anything about the subject and ask if they have
something they recommend for the specific purpose of hardening and "plastifying" a wood, with the ability to touch it up as it wears. The tung oil
formulas I tried met those requirements, but there may be something even better.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Ok, my last update...
I am almost done with the new nut (synthetic bone. Any experiance with that matirieal?).
But i cut my finger, so i have to wait to finish it 
I can't find ethanol in this city!!! I tried white sprit. Didn't do a thing. So -I lightly sanded down the shellack. Hope that was stupied. But i am
getting unpasient!
I removed the bridge (it went nicely).
Now i am thinking: is it possible to reinforce the bridge area from under the face of the oud, with a 2mm thick peace of spruce that is exactly the
shape of the bridge (by glueing it on the inside)?
I have seen that somewhere done by a guitar maker, reparing a guitar. i think it was a link from Dr.oud.
Thanks
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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But if you just glue the bridge "twin" underneath, it won't do a lot unless you drive screws or dowels through the soundboard, and that surely has
been thought of (and rejected for a reason)?
Were you sanding the varnish off the fingerboard or shellac off the soundboard?
Be patient. I am coating a neck that started out rather thickly varnished. I used alcohol and naphta and sanding and it still didn't completely come
off. It's harder to bond anything to it, the oil mix cannot soak in well, and it hardens more slowly. The first coats with oil mixes can be tricky.
I was researching some coatings used for billiard cues, but the maker just answered it won't work well for us. But I also found fume-less
cyanoacrylates, so there is probably a cyanoacryl-fingerboard in my future. I don't believe in segregating "organic" vs "synthetic" finishes,
everything is bio-chemistry. If it bonds and polishes easily into a tough coating that can be touched up, it doesn't matter whether it came off a tree
last year as seed oil or millions of years ago pressed into crude oil. After this neck, my plan is to do some tests with cyanoacrylate on wood
scraps.
Here is what some people buff epoxy and cyanoacrylate fingerboards to, if they like the bright sound and long sustain. Wow! A semi-matte surface is of
course much easier to do and more appropriate for the oud.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Oh, David and Luttgutt, if you have not seen this, search for Tru-Oil in the forum and google. This is the linseed oil mix that is used on rifle
stocks, much like a Tung Oil mix, though apparently Tung oil is tougher.
There is also a wide discussion of finishes/coatings here:
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/FinishOverview.htm
They don't seem to distinguish sufficiently between finishes for various parts of an instrument.
The fretless fingerboard needs a tough film that resists strings' abrasion and is easily touched up when it wears. Epoxies and Cyanoacrylate allow
thick glassy fingerboard coatings to be created by smearing on and buffing, polymerizing oils make a thinner and more flexible film that is easily
applied and refreshed with a rag.
The fretted fingerboard just needs a cosmetic touch like lemon oil.
The body needs a varnish/lacquer that resists chipping and scratching, preferably thick and able to flex a little. A guitar body and an oud bowl have
similar needs.
The soundboard needs only the thinnest of shellacs to keep the wood clean and pretty, but without flexibility so as not to dampen the sound. Natural
unfinished wood sounds good but is hard to keep clean. A thick polyurethane varnish is not a good idea, but the more brittle the less harmful, while
an oil, which at first glance seems harmless, if you think about it, is obviously a way to rubberize and deaden a soundboard. I have heard of
harpsichord soundboards that took years to recover from a well-meaning oiling.
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
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Thanks Tony,
I'm going to read it carefully tomorrow (very sick today...).
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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I love this one, you can see how multiple coats of Boiled Linseed Oil (Tru-Oil) looks on a rifle stock.
I especially like how it takes 2 minutes (!) for the man to explain that hanging the piece by a wire means it doesn't have to lean on anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvryJL9okd8
And listen to how apparently saying "Tru-Oil" repeatedly makes him feel good. Especially with a Southern American accent. And that wood is lookin'
real nassss ! Looks like everybody like to say "TRU-OIL":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtuJ495R9qU
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David.B
Oud Junkie
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Thanks for the videos,
I must go to the shops above this WE... This process interests me but I wonder why there's not so much feedback here from oudmakers, luthiers ?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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I guess it's not the traditional approach, so it's probably wrong. But traditionalists often use a varnish on the fingerboard.
This is just using a better varnish, and a way to make a softer wood like walnut behave more like a hard to get wood like ebony.
In time ebony may disappear. We can't use eagle feathers any longer, either.
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Ali
Oud Maniac
Posts: 98
Registered: 10-17-2005
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Hi guys
I just read every post in this topic and thank to everyone of you its great. and I got
so interested to do tune oil the finger board of my Sukar Oud but I have never done woodwork
and I am afraid I damage it!
I was wondering how much thickness should I sand off of the fingerboard?
And will the tuning oil add up the thickness?
and when I am doing the final sanding on dryed tune oiled finger board as final sanding,
how critical is that ? Is it possible that my sanding making little uneven surface and create
problem?
Is there a way to have a simple step by step proccess for unexperiencd people like me?
I am playing oud for long time but I know nothing about wood work.
Thanks
Ali
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Dear Ali
I had posted several times with instructions and photos. Do a search for "tung".
In other countries you may have to hunt like Luttgut did, but If you are in the US, the simplest to use is Formby's glossy Tung Oil Finish. There's
also Tru-oil that is widely used on rifles. Luttgutt is happy with the Danish Oil he found. These are all polymerizing oil based wipe-on finishes that
set over a couple of days into a hard surface that strings only slowly wear into, that you can easily touch up when you see wear, and that add zing
and sustain. All we are doing is "plastifying" a softer wood to act like a high quality hard ebony (that is becoming very expensive and whose use is
maybe ecologically unwise).
Clean the fingerboard with alcohol and a rag, get all the old varnish off and sand lightly with a 600 sandpaper. You try to get to clean wood so the
new finish can soak into the wood. But don't dig deeply chasing virgin wood, you may never get there and could go too far; a rough surface free of old
varnish is good enough.
You will not be changing the height because these are micro-layers. The sanding also should be very very light. But if you are very nervous don't do
it, try to find someone with woodworking experience to help.
Mask off the edges and the soundboard with that blue painter's masking tape, DO NOT get the Oil Finish on the other parts of the oud, only the
fingerboard. The bowl should be left as it is varnished, the soundboard either stays raw, or egg-whited, or French-polished with shellac in alcohol.
You just wipe on a layer, let it set until not soft or sticky, sand very lightly, wipe on a layer, sand again, keep doing this for several days. Make
the last layer eggshelly with finer sandpaper. If its too thick and stays soft, sand it deeper and it will harden. It's pretty intuitive. Just give it
time, don't do this on your only oud.
If you are unhappy with how it's turning out, put more of the stuff on, thickly, let it all get soft, and scrub it all off.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Maybe ask a guitar or violin luthier, what it would cost, if he does it. A question doesn't cost you money 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Location: Norway
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Definetly! I followed fernandraynaud's procedure, and I am very happy with the result. Better then expected!
Yes, there was no way getting Formby's oil in Norway. But I found out (after a long strugle) that Danish oil is quit similar.
Some aftermath thoughts:
1- It looks and feels good!
2- It DID add some hight (litle less then 1mm).
maybe I did not sand enough. But I am very happy with it this way. Note that I was going to change the nut anyway. So more hight was no
problem.
3- It changed the timber on my oud. The oud sounds more "turkish" now.
I did not mind it since I don't have any turkish oud. So I welcome the new sound.
p.s. the oud I worked on is 58,5 cm arabic (sukar) oud. Maybe that is why I got the turkish timber!?
4- the oud stil smells bad (done for around 10 days now). But getting better now. So I hope the smell would go away eventually.
p.s. Thanks a lot Tony for all your help
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Hey, Geko, I'm glad I'm not hallucinating, and I'm not the only one who likes this inexpensive little upgrade 
The timbre can be controlled because it's a matter of how smooth the surface is. If you make it very hard, smooth and glossy, it picks up more high
frequencies and notes last (sustain) longer. It's a bit like fingering the left hand Armenian-style with your fingernails. If you want to tone it
down, just sand it more, rougher.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
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Well actually, the Danish oil alone cost me 35$
But I am starting to appriciate using my hands on my ouds
And now it looks even prettier then when it was new!
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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You have Oil and spirit left over. The next project is just around the corner. It's called "amortizing" I think.
It's endless. My Adani Oud (my "Baby") is prettier and sounds better than ever in its life. I was going to make holes in it for pickups, and now I
can't because it sounds great and I even love its looks now. If it said Mohamed Fadel inside, even Alfaraby would love it. Well, I know it sounds good
and plays very nicely regardless of what it says inside. So I guess I need another to make holes in.
p.s. you overpaid on the Danish Oil. If only we could operate a cooperative and pass the tools and materials back and forth among comrades! (how big a
drum of Danish Oil did you get?)
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Ali
Oud Maniac
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Fernand
Thank you very much for nice and simple explanation ,I got it and I just need to decide
which one of my Ouds I start doing it to.Thank you for explaining it even again.
Luttgutt
Thank you for sharing your experience in such cmplette way. its very helpfull .
Regards
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Hahahah ! Not even if Abdo Nahat himself, not only his name, is inside ...
Anyhow, I've been looking for this kind of oil since this was first posted. I was planning to use it on an "Oud Adany" just like Fernand had done, but
never found any around here, not even Danish.
I might have to import it myself right from China, unless you have other suggestions !!
Yours
Alfaraby
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ali |
Luttgutt
Thank you for sharing your experience in such cmplette way. its very helpfull .
Regards |
My pleasur Ali
And good luck
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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