mrkmni
Oud Junkie
Posts: 393
Registered: 12-9-2007
Location: Ottawa/Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Is this normal?
Hi Guys,
I measured the distance between the strings and the board: it is 6 mm.
I find that it is too much. Any Idea?
Thanks
[file]12697[/file]
[file]12699[/file]
|
|
|
aytayfun
Oud Junkie
Posts: 201
Registered: 1-28-2006
Location: Türkiye
Member Is Offline
Mood: luthier and player
|
|
Of course not. Not sure but I think ıt must be below 2 mm.
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
|
|
|
Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
|
|
That's possible (the 2mm) I guess, for Turkish slinky buzzy style ud, but It's usually between 3 & 4.5 mm for comfort / playability... anything
lower than 3 will lower the dynamics of the oud, anything higher than 4.5 will be hard to play and have a dull muted sound from your fingers.
If this is what you are playing those tunes on that you post , man you're gonna sound awesome when it's fixed or you get a new oud, you will find all
the things you've been trying to get will be SO much easier and better!
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Hi Guys 
I Think Its too high. Unless u are more comfortable with this height.
If U play better in this high action That's ok. coz My concern is the players comfortability. Dont mine which is the correct height of the strings.
also some players are around 3.5-4.5mm that's normal. Try to use an oud that is low in action see if u like the sound and playability. if not the
stick to what u have.
If u want a lower action try adjusting the strings on the bridge by pushing the strings on the tied knot to get a little lower if not still satisfied
you may want to make some new lower holes for the strings to go thru at the bridge. u may want also to sand the nut on the bottom to compensate on the
nut height. Dont sand the nut grooves. better the bottom part of the nut.
I Just want say mine is around 2.5 mm height from the neck joint. I wanted a Low action coz It' feels better for me when I play. And I have a Tight
Bass wounds to conmpensate the low action on the wounds Otherwise I get a lot of buzz sound.
BTW I like Having A Little Buzzy wound which is still controllable if u want some buzz. It's a Little hard to get used to but it adds effect to the
notes you are playing.
Like Sazi said
"anything lower than 3 will lower the dynamics of the oud, anything higher than 4.5 will be hard to play and have a dull muted sound from your
fingers"
So Goodluck on this mate!
Hope U fine wchich is best suitable for u..... Dont Worry which is the correct height.
It maybe correct for them but for u not. It does not work always what's standard.
Cheers
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
mrkmni
Oud Junkie
Posts: 393
Registered: 12-9-2007
Location: Ottawa/Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thank you guys for the informations,
I also think it is too much specially when I play in higher zones.
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Hi mrkmni!
Your welcome!
Cheers
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Question for the super-experienced!
Yes, for me as well 2.5 - 4.5 mm is the ideal range, with a touch of buzz at 2.5. Now the question is what to do in your case.
I'm assuming you have the nut height right for the open strings, strings need 1/2 mm or so clearance, no more. The nut has no effect on fingered
strings. Most nuts are barely glued in, a little hot water should undo the hide glue. Then, as Philip says, sand the bottom.
If you have the little adjustment wheels on the neck, i forget the maker who uses those, obviously you can adjust those. If you have a Sukar, what you
need to do is finger-tighten the butterfly nut inside the bowl, against the neck block. This needs to be done gradually, giving the neck and block
time to settle.
If you have no adjustments available, it takes more work. Unlike guitars and basses, oud necks don't tend to warp and curve, the "scooping" of the
soundboard and the neck's angle to the body is the problem. Loosening and shimming the neck is the standard "neck job", and it's a task for a luthier,
because the neck is glued solid. If a modern aliphatic ("carpenter yellow") glue was used, it's a serious challenge. So alternatives need to be
explored.
If your strings are tied high, you can get maybe a half millimeter lower by tying them low, but not much more. I have not tried this on a whole set,
but another 1/2 mm or more is achievable by not tying a normal loop, just making a knot at the end of the string, maybe around a little bead
if the hole is big, and simply threading through the hole in the bridge. I have had to do this on short bass strings where there's not enough
string to do a proper loop, and it quite lowers the action (where I don't WANT it to). Altogether this might get you down to 4.5 mm, maybe 4 mm.
It also might affect the timbre, compared to loops. Please advise, Old Timers: Is there a reason to not do this?
If your bridge has a vertical face towards the nut AND the strings are high enough above the soundboard, you can indeed drill new holes. If the bridge
has a sloped face you are changing the scale a little, and if the strings are already not very high, you may find them uncomfortably low with the new
holes, so you slap the soundboard with the risha. But it's not a dead end, if you don't like it, it's easy to fill the holes with wood dust + glue (or
toothpick + sawdust + glue) and do something else, until your bridge looks like swiss cheese. Lower holes in the bridge is by far the easiest solution
if you don't have an adjustable neck and threading with no loop is not enough.
The worst case: I have an oud where the bridge is sloped and the strings are already low, so I have to raise the fingerboard, i.e. add a layer of
hardwood on the fingerboard. A 1/16 to 1/8 " piece of ebony or rosewood or brazilian cherry can sometimes be found and cut to trace the existing
fingerboard. Of course this also means raising the nut. And finishing the edges and side of the neck. It's not THAT difficult, but it has taken me
months to gather the tools, materials and the courage.
|
|
|
Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Curious
|
|
Hi mrkmni!
I am not sure how you are doing your mesuring!! It looks like you are mesuring from the edge of the Oud (diagonally!) Why?
If you are, then 6mm is not that much!
|
|
|
mrkmni
Oud Junkie
Posts: 393
Registered: 12-9-2007
Location: Ottawa/Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt  | Hi mrkmni!
I am not sure how you are doing your mesuring!! It looks like you are mesuring from the edge of the Oud (diagonally!) Why?
If you are, then 6mm is not that much! |
Hi Luttgutt,
the distance is perpendicular to the plan of the board. may be the picture does not show it clearly.
I will try to put another one.
Thanks
|
|
|
mrkmni
Oud Junkie
Posts: 393
Registered: 12-9-2007
Location: Ottawa/Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Yes, for me as well 2.5 - 4.5 mm is the ideal range, with a touch of buzz at 2.5. Now the question is what to do in your case.
I'm assuming you have the nut height right for the open strings, strings need 1/2 mm or so clearance, no more. The nut has no effect on fingered
strings. Most nuts are barely glued in, a little hot water should undo the hide glue. Then, as Philip says, sand the bottom.
If you have the little adjustment wheels on the neck, i forget the maker who uses those, obviously you can adjust those. If you have a Sukar, what you
need to do is finger-tighten the butterfly nut inside the bowl, against the neck block. This needs to be done gradually, giving the neck and block
time to settle.
If you have no adjustments available, it takes more work. Unlike guitars and basses, oud necks don't tend to warp and curve, the "scooping" of the
soundboard and the neck's angle to the body is the problem. Loosening and shimming the neck is the standard "neck job", and it's a task for a luthier,
because the neck is glued solid. If a modern aliphatic ("carpenter yellow") glue was used, it's a serious challenge. So alternatives need to be
explored.
If your strings are tied high, you can get maybe a half millimeter lower by tying them low, but not much more. I have not tried this on a whole set,
but another 1/2 mm or more is achievable by not tying a normal loop, just making a knot at the end of the string, maybe around a little bead
if the hole is big, and simply threading through the hole in the bridge. I have had to do this on short bass strings where there's not enough
string to do a proper loop, and it quite lowers the action (where I don't WANT it to). Altogether this might get you down to 4.5 mm, maybe 4 mm.
It also might affect the timbre, compared to loops. Please advise, Old Timers: Is there a reason to not do this?
If your bridge has a vertical face towards the nut AND the strings are high enough above the soundboard, you can indeed drill new holes. If the bridge
has a sloped face you are changing the scale a little, and if the strings are already not very high, you may find them uncomfortably low with the new
holes, so you slap the soundboard with the risha. But it's not a dead end, if you don't like it, it's easy to fill the holes with wood dust + glue (or
toothpick + sawdust + glue) and do something else, until your bridge looks like swiss cheese. Lower holes in the bridge is by far the easiest solution
if you don't have an adjustable neck and threading with no loop is not enough.
The worst case: I have an oud where the bridge is sloped and the strings are already low, so I have to raise the fingerboard, i.e. add a layer of
hardwood on the fingerboard. A 1/16 to 1/8 " piece of ebony or rosewood or brazilian cherry can sometimes be found and cut to trace the existing
fingerboard. Of course this also means raising the nut. And finishing the edges and side of the neck. It's not THAT difficult, but it has taken me
months to gather the tools, materials and the courage. |
I think my case corresponds with your worst case, because even when the strings touch the soundboard there is always a gap at the joint with the neck;
As you said this is the toughest job for a Luthier: how to keep wood elements unbended under tension and for 100 years, especially if they are
glued...And that is why I loered my tuning...
If I add the layer than there will be a level discontinuity unless it continues to the mid sounboard...
New holes does not work as I explained...Also the nut is OK and can not be lowered further...
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Hi!
Can u explain a little bit more further. Im not totally clear what u have said earlier.
Is the nut already low?
Cheers
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
mrkmni
Oud Junkie
Posts: 393
Registered: 12-9-2007
Location: Ottawa/Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Philip,
If I lower the strings at th ebase of the bridge, there still be maybe 4 mm a gap...but you know the oud becomes un-playable. The nut is ok..
In my opinion, the solution would be major repairs of the structure of the Oud by a Luthier, or getting rid of th eoud and buying a new robust
one.....I like to play with F string....but...
I just missed one Sukar....
|
|
|
FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
|
|
Woow thats still wide!
Yes it would be better to bring to a luthier and check it.
That's more like it! New Oud New Life!
I hear someone is selling one of his sukars here.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10031
Cheers
Flipo
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
|
|
|
oudmaker
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-23-2004
Location: Philadelphia-USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Listen what Tayfun said. 2mm is the most you should have. If it buzzez change the oud instead to fight high strings with your fingers. That will
improve your performance.
Dincer
|
|
|
mrkmni
Oud Junkie
Posts: 393
Registered: 12-9-2007
Location: Ottawa/Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Dear Dincer,
I agree with you with 2 mm, I heard about the wood match, which is about that dimension.
However, in The market, it is difficult to find 2mm.
Thanks,
|
|
|
aytayfun
Oud Junkie
Posts: 201
Registered: 1-28-2006
Location: Türkiye
Member Is Offline
Mood: luthier and player
|
|
Than try to find a Manol like mine. It comes from 1895 and just 2 mm.
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
