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Jameel
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Video--shooting the long miter
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Jameel
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Video--shooting the short miter and assembly
Video--shooting the short miter and assembly
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Jameel
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Completed the back
Completed the back today. The shape is a bit off, but for my first time building with a mould, I'm satisifed. The shape of the ribs is very critical.
If the taper is just a bit fat, it will multiply with each rib and make the back off-shape. Overall, I liked building with the mould. It didn't really
make it easier than without a mold, but it did provide a shape to guide the construction, and with proper fitting and technique, prevent making the
bowl smaller than intended.
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Jameel
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The bowl
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Jameel
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More...
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Jameel
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bottom view
The shape of the bowl is a little wider at the widest spot than it should be, about 4mm or so.
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Jameel
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Comparing the shape
The darker outline is the final shape of the bowl. You can see in the lower, wider section, how the shape differs from the pattern. It's a bit
assymetrical, but probabaly will be unoticeable on the finished instrument.
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Elie Riachi
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Nice work Jameel. My guess is that a lot of ouds have this same character but we just don't hear about it. Being a perfectionist is a quality of a
fine instrument maker.
I have a guess on the cause of this, and it is just a guess. Whe you assemble the ribs, do they also bend across the width of the mould? Looking at
the profile of "The bowl," the ribs appear flat. I think the gap may be due to that the calculations of the ribs widths were made without taking into
account the straight segmant approximation of an arc, which might be the case in practice. Just a guess.
Thanks for sharing your valuable experience Jameel.
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Jameel
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Back scraped clean
| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
Nice work Jameel. My guess is that a lot of ouds have this same character but we just don't hear about it. Being a perfectionist is a quality of a
fine instrument maker.
I have a guess on the cause of this, and it is just a guess. Whe you assemble the ribs, do they also bend across the width of the mould? Looking at
the profile of "The bowl," the ribs appear flat. I think the gap may be due to that the calculations of the ribs widths were made without taking into
account the straight segmant approximation of an arc, which might be the case in practice. Just a guess.
Thanks for sharing your valuable experience Jameel. |
Thanks Elie. I'll comment on your guess. The ribs do not bend acroos the width. They remain flat. Actually, if the rib is wide (like for 13 rib bowl),
it actually gets minutely concave (on the outside face) but not enough to cause any fitting problems. I'm not an engineer, so I don't know why this
happens, I'm guessing something to do with compression causes the distortion. Who knows? The discrepancy is caused by two things in my experience.
One, making the rib shape (the edge) incorrectly, and bending the rib a small amount differently each time the rib is fit. Imagine the ribs assembled
before they are cut to shape, but bent. You would just have a long straight oud-shaped tunnel. When you start tapering the edges, the ribs start to
form a circle. To a greater or lesser extent the shape of the rib determines the radius of the bowl. The closer to "square" the rib is, the less of a
radius you will end up with. Even one rib that's a bit off will affect the rest. I think for the next bowl I will draw lines on the form to give the
exact shape of each rib. (You can see these on Dincer Dalkilic's form). I should have done this on this oud, but foolishly didn't. When I fit each rib
I have to re-bend it on the iron, not only since it has opened up since I first bent it weeks ago, but also because it must match the shape of the
previous rib. We're only working with 2.3 mm or so, so the edge must match very closely. If it doesn't there won't be enough rib thickness left when
the joints are scraped flush. If you go by Dr. Oud's book, the back should be 1.5mm all over, so I guess the alignment could be off quite a bit with a
2.3mm rib. I think nowadays most ouds have thicker ribs. My Sukar has 3mm ribs and is not light. The first oud I made had about 2.3mm, and it was very
very light, so this thickness works well for me.
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Jameel
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Tail end
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Jameel
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Wiping on some naptha
Oooooooh.........pretty
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Elie Riachi
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Love the chreography, just missing the belly dancer 
That bowl cleaned up pretty good, wow. When is the inlay going in?
I think what you mentioned regarding the marking of the mould will solve this problem. I would like to add to that taking flexible strips of
transparent plastic and bending them over the mould then trasfering the marks to the plastic and labeling each strip with a corresponding order on the
mould then connecting the marks with a smooth curve. Then cutting along the curves. These curves now are used as templates for the ribs.
Good work bud. .V,,
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Mike
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Wow...what a beauty Jameel! Bravo my friend. I know you've told me the most tedious part for you is the back assembly, so I'm glad that's over for
you. It really turned out fantastic! Way to go. Can't wait to see the inlay either.
Take care,
Mike
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Elie Riachi
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Jameel, I would like to add, and I am certain that you have accounted for that but just to be complete, it seems to me that when designing the mould
one should make the profile of the edge of the mould's vertical dividers round and the dimensions of the mould to the tip of the round edge would
reflect the dimensions of the inside of the bowl.
(Wishfull thinking: but maybe Jameel will have belly dancers for the inlay video )
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dss
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Jameel, the documentation of your work is incredible and very inspiring.
I wonder how long it will be before you appear on the television show DIY: Handmade Music? I just happened to catch the last episode going
step-by-step through the process of making a dulcimer (previoulsy a guitar and mandolin).
See: Handmade Music
Thanks,
Don
PS. Long time lurker on this site and needed to re-register. Great site, Mike.
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Jameel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
Jameel, I would like to add, and I am certain that you have accounted for that but just to be complete, it seems to me that when designing the mould
one should make the profile of the edge of the mould's vertical dividers round and the dimensions of the mould to the tip of the round edge would
reflect the dimensions of the inside of the bowl.
(Wishfull thinking: but maybe Jameel will have belly dancers for the inlay video ) |
Elie,
The flats on the form really aren't wide enough to affect the shape of the back. Take a look at some of the forms on Ronny's site, they are much
cruder than mine. I'm just a beginner, but I'm of the idea that form serves two purposes. 1. Hold the blocks at their proper position
2. give a general idea of the shape of the bowl.
Elie, you should make a mold and get right into making a bowl. I did what you are doing now before I started building---trying to analyze these
aspects a bit too much. Just start doing it---that will answer 99% of your questions in about 5 minutes, and save a whole bunch of brain drain in the
process. The mold really has nothing to do with fitting the ribs. It's not like to slap the bent rib on the mold, push it to to previous rib and let
the glue set. The rib has to be bent very precisely to the shape of the previous rib and jointed so the edge closes with virtually no pressure. I fit
my ribs so the joint closes when just barely holding the rib against the previous one. I also have a flexible light that I place inside the bowl to
check the joint. If I see ANY light at all through the joint, I fit it until it closes completely--no light at all showing. This makes fitting the rib
time consuming (I take about one hour for each rib), but also guarantees that no tension or compression is built into the back. You want the back to
basically be the shape that it is on it's own. Imagine removing all the glue from the back at once, you wouldn't want it to spring open at all, just
keep it's shape.
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Jameel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dss
Jameel, the documentation of your work is incredible and very inspiring.
I wonder how long it will be before you appear on the television show DIY: Handmade Music? I just happened to catch the last episode going
step-by-step through the process of making a dulcimer (previoulsy a guitar and mandolin).
See: Handmade Music
Thanks,
Don
PS. Long time lurker on this site and needed to re-register. Great site, Mike. |
Thanks for the nice comments. There are some real oudmakers here in the US that would make great candidiates for that show. Kyvelos, Najarian,
Dalkilic. I wish my cable company carried that network. That looks like a show I would be addicted to!
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revaldo29
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Hey Jameel,
I see in the last picture you posted of the oud that you have a picture of a nahat on a clip board. Are you making an exact replica of that oud?
That shamsiyya looks so awesome.
Adnan
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Jameel
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Adnan,
I'm using several different elements from this oud, (mostly the different inlay styles) and some from other Nahats. I'm not brave enough to try a
shamsiyya like that yet. But I will be trying a bone shamsiyya, just a simpler one. If you think that one is nice, you should see the one on Hamza El
Din's Nahat. Whoa!
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Dr. Oud
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First, add my commendation for another fine build. Your craftsmanship is superb and your development of new methods is invaluable to all of us.
I believe the original purpose of the mold was to provide a nailing platform to hold the ribs together until the glue set. You can see this in many
lute building examples like on Art Robb's website. Examination of the building methods in the workshop pictures on Ronny's Iraqi oud site also shows that they are using the mold
just to hold the end blocks. The ribs are then held together with tape. The video of the Egyptian maker reinforces this method, while it appears that
he uses a hot iron to remelt the glue possibly to realign the ribs after the build-up.
Even with the use of a mold, the final shape can still vary due to humidity and temperature effects on the ribs. The grain density and direction of
the wood in each rib is affected differently, causing the slight asymmetry. I have not seen a perfectly symmetrical oud, by the way and I have seen
quite a few ouds. Asymmetry is evident on many old master made instruments, guitars, violins, etc. It's been observed that the pursuit of perfect form
has been an outcome of the application of modern fixturing while the old masters didn't concern themselves with shape as much as tonal
characteristics.
-great job Jameel, live long and prosper!
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Jameel
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Preparing the inlay
The master has spoken.......
Thanks Doc! Much appreciated.
I sliced up the inlay blocks, and got 4 slices from each. I them bent them. The straight sections were done on the iron, then I laid the piece on the
oud and pressed down on the end section with a hand-held iron. The glue softens too, it's a fine line between warm enough to bend, and the whole thing
falling apart. I taped them in place while they cooled.
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Jameel
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Inlaying the back
I built a little base for my Dremel Flex Shaft routing tool for routing the inlay recess. First I tacked the inlays in place with just a couple dabs
of white Elmer's glue, let that dry for about an hour, then scribed along the edge with an Exacto knife. I removed the inlay peices by heating them
slightly with an iron where the glue was and slipping a thin blade underneath to free them. I routed the recess almost to the line, which I then cut
up to with a sharp chisel. Since I scribed the outline with the knife, my chisel slipped neatly into the slice and made for a gap-free inlay, unless I
slip up, which I did in a couple places if one looks close. I suppose it's good for the ego to have some goof-ups here and there, if they're no so
obvious of course. 
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Jameel
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Video of the inlay
Two of five strips completed.
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Elie Riachi
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Great Job Jameel 
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Faladel
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Hi Jameel :
Can you post more photo of your a little base for my Dremel Flex Shaft routing tool for routing the inlay recess.
I want built one that I have a Dremel
Regards
Oud Player
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