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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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I personally wouldn't consider this "jazz", but I definitely consider this "oriental jazz"! [if that makes sense  ]
Thank God for guys like JT!
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jass
Oud Maniac
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Registered: 11-7-2008
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Hello Edward and Aymara,
Its funny, I dont know if I consider his music either. I know it can be classified either in general. But I am very familiar with JT's work (a huge
fan!) and if you look at other clips (and cds) like his Trio, I think you can notice a real style there which is different to other oud players
collaborating. Would Tawadros be considered having his own genre? like Piazzola perhaps  Maybe not that far but a similar idea. I just think he has a very
tasteful style which balances all aspects of the players involved which makes it sound so natural and less contrived. It just seems jazz players can
adapt to his music better.
Look at these trio clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoH2s1c0cyQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_pwAB6Oy7g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV7kVVrrEyw
ideas?
Jass.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Maybe because Joseph's style is a bit influenced by the Western music, he is confronted with in Australia? And it is more rhythm orientated as the
style of other players, thanks to his brother. But I think it's also his own interest in Jazz. I see a two-way relationship and influence here between
the Jazzers and Joseph himself.
The combination with a 5-string bass in the above videos is great, though I can't understand, why such a virtuoso like Ben Rodgers doesn't use a
fretless bass here, which would suit oud music much better and enable him to use quarter tones.
I myself am planning of buying a 5-string fretless acoustic bass for multitrack microphone recordings with oud and framedrum ... though not being a
virtuoso 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jass
Oud Maniac
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Hey Chris,
You might be right, I guess its an understanding which I find some collaborations dont have. but whatever the case, I am really loving what JT is
doing.
I dont know why Ben Rodgers doesnt use a fretless, but what a fantastic player? I also think Joseph's brother is a very different req player, very
engaging and a good influence. What a family!
I dont know if you've seen this clip? Its not jazz but another good mix.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJQ0IaFW4AY&feature=related
And this was quite suprising, very unjazzy, more traditional playing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWn2ysvVUZU&feature=related
I must say I love Al Gibaley too!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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You seem to be a real fan ... understandable ... I like, that he is experiment-joyfully, trying different collaborations, be it traditional, Jazz or
even a synphonic orchestra.
| Quote: | | I dont know why Ben Rodgers doesnt use a fretless, ... |
Not many bass guitar players ever tried a fretless bass guitar (I guess 10% or less) ... maybe he too?
| Quote: | | but what a fantastic player? |
Yes, but I myself like Anouar Brahem's current bassist's style even more, though also not fretless.
| Quote: | | I also think Joseph's brother is a very different req player, very engaging and a good influence. |
Especially, when we keep in mind, how young he is.
| Quote: | | I dont know if you've seen this clip? |
No. Thanks, very interesting!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jass
Oud Maniac
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Big Fan
Sorry, I wont post anymore JT here, I think...get back on track...
How old is Joseph's brother?
I didnt hear much of Anouars bassist to be honest to be able to judge, but I guess you have the album.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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21, if I remember it correctly.
| Quote: | | ..., but I guess you have the album. |
Shure
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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I don't know if Rodgers plays both, but one reason for not using a fretless bass with oud is to provide harmonic "grounding". If you try it, if you
have both instruments on hand, you find that on some pieces it just sounds much better. There's also a harmonic richness to round wound bass strings
that "blooms" best on fretted intonation, while the oud can "solo" over it.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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That's the main importatant point maybe besides the fact, if a player got used to a fretless bass or not ... on fretless basses we usually play
flatwound strings, because Glissandi produce too much screeching noise with roundwound strings AND roundwounds are a fingerboard killer ... and
roundwounds have more overtones and sustain as flatwound strings.
AND ... Björn Meyer, Anouar's bassist, uses a special technique here and there, that is only playable on a fretted bass.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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I also thought for sure fretless w'oud always work better with oud, and although there ARE opportunities, what I meant by "grounding" is simply having
stable non-movable notes for the oud to float against. It's not a matter of quarter tones. Where Turkish music has the 9 very formally (in ways I have
never studied) prescribed "commas" between say E and D, the Arabic way is for "sensible" notes to move around depending on Maqam but also direction of
the melody and mood. So the E will be played in different places between E and Eb, even if by the Maqam that's in use nominally it's E half flat, and
intervals might e.g. narrow ascending and stretch descending. If in a very small ensemble with the oud there's a fretted bass or piano that
(obviously) does not adjust intonation, and even single notes on those fat wound strings generate a wave of perfect Pythagorean interval harmonics, as
long as you don't try lame ideas like e.g. imposing a major third in Rast, the effect is very interesting, to my ear anyway.
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Microber
Oud Junkie
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No other opinion about Amir Elsaffar ?
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jass
Oud Maniac
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Theres some nice things, but Id prefer oud. Trumpet is still a Western instrument, so not unusual to blend it
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Branko
Oud Junkie
Posts: 138
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Location: Perth, Australia
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Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  |
In my opinion Brahem's music has almost nothing in common with both Jazz and Oriental music. . . . IMHO he plays totally in his own way - yes,
bases largely on modes... but not Oriental modes, more like Gregorian modes. I absolutely love his feel and sound---- but I find it irritating
when he is refered to as an Oriental musician (meaning, playing "oriental music").... and of course he is certainly not playing Jazz, unless you
use the term "jazz" to describe an enormous variety of improvised music.
[my opinions only ] and: ...degradation in both jazz and modal music because
the truly advanced element of jazz (improvisation over a sophisticated chordal system) has been deleted completely... |
So, are you telling us that Coltrane stopped playing jazz mid 60's because his compositions had only two chords so lacking a sophisticated chordal
system or Ornette Colemane Trio did not play jazz because they played chord-less music?
I would rather say that common denominator in 'all that jazz ' is the improvisation (taxims included). And to paraphrase late Miles Davis 'We do not
need white man's advice how to play jazz' (replay to Bill Evans); nor Arabs, Indians, Africans, Balkaners,...... There is no need for the western
self-proclaimed protectors of the musical traditions, as music lives (and evolves) only in the heads of the living practitioners.
Just my two bobs
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Branko | | There is no need for the western self-proclaimed protectors of the musical traditions, as music lives (and evolves) only in the heads of the living
practitioners. |
Very interesting argumentation 
But I think, we can cancel the word "western", because you will find such "protectors" or let's call them traditionalists all over the world.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Branko
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
But I think, we can cancel the word "western", because you will find such "protectors" or let's call them traditionalists all over the world.
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I define traditionalist as one who is a living practitioner of a musical tradition and argues against evolution of that tradition with fellow
practitioners of that tradition. I really meant what I have written, as I have not seen such propensity to paternalise within other cultures.
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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maran
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Branko | | And to paraphrase late Miles Davis 'We do not need white man's advice how to play jazz' (replay to Bill Evans); |
Hi Branko - just curious, when did Miles Davis say that about Bill Evans? Is it in a book, interview? The Miles Davis/Bill Evans relationship was a
complex one and I had not heard that before. Thx
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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To suggest that a music can be called jazz simply because it contains a strong improvisational element is simply false, in my opinion. Taksims
included. A taksim is no more jazz than the aolian mode is maqam nahawand. Yes, the word jazz has been stretch radically - but still there are
limits.
I also feel that it is misleading to suggest that Coltrane's modal jazz, and Coleman's free jazz contain only two or even no chords... on the surface
it seems this way, but it is not so. Listen closely to the solo lines and they are full of chordal and chromatic playing. In my opinion this is the
musical language that makes jazz "jazz". A chordal chromatic musical language that developed over a long period of time.
I guess my way of seeing this is now "old fashioned" - The musical world clearly does not see it this way now... The word "jazz" the world over has
come to mean something else. I think that much of the music these days being marketed as some form of "jazz" is very worthwhile music - but
personally I would prefer it they would call it something else.
My feeling is that when a soloist drops everything resembling a chromatic chordal way of improvising - it is not jazz anymore. When an oud player
completely abandons the maqam system when making an improvisation, are you still going to call it "arab classical music"? You can, these are only
words... but.......... isn't it a question of respect for the original art form (musical language) that took so long to develop? I am not at
all objecting to change and evolution in any kind of music! I am only saying, that out of respect for an already established art form it is important
to try to avoid confusing people with overlapping labels. Why do we have to keep calling all these different musics "jazz"? Why not just think of a
new name?
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Branko
Oud Junkie
Posts: 138
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Location: Perth, Australia
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| Quote: Originally posted by maran |
Hi Branko - just curious, when did Miles Davis say that about Bill Evans? Is it in a book, interview? The Miles Davis/Bill Evans relationship was a
complex one and I had not heard that before. Thx |
In a documentary, Bill told the anecdote himself imitating Miles's voice. After a gig the bend was traveling in a car and Bill expressed some
improvement ideas and got that replay "Maaaan, we don't....". I can't remember, as quite few years passed since I watched it on TV, was it a series on
jazz history or just about Miles.
Let us leave definition of jazz to jazz practitioners on some other forum as we may open the can of Verbal Diarrhoea and be more active on next forum
on the list of forums.
My point is: Who we (westerners) are to judge or advise, for instance Anouar Brahem who is firstly native, secondly well educated and talented. who
plays traditional music very well (check his album Qoos), on what part of his musical heritage he should apply in his creative work, as we are the
guests, uninvited (mostly), scratching the surface of that tradition. I rest my case with this: one can play well only what was listening in mother's
womb.(there are very few exceptions)
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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... and continue our journey to the next oudist, highly influenced by Jazz: Rabih Abou-Khalil
Let me show you three pieces, that show the broad musical spectrum of this very interesting musician:
Video 1
Video 2
Video 3
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Branko | | I rest my case with this: one can play well only what was listening in mother's womb.(there are very few exceptions) |
This is a very sad myth I am afraid to say. That is a bit like saying a person is only able to speak his/her native language well. Everybody knows
that it would be absurd to assume this. And furthermore, a non-native speaker who learns another language well often speaks with more charm and
charisma than the native speaker - and it is the occational "mistake" and "mispronunciation" that gives this interesting flavour.
So please try not to perpetuate this myth because I feel that it serves to discourage people from undertaking serious study and reseach into other
cultures, for fear that not being a "native" it would be impossible to achieve anything worthwhile when compared to the "original".
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Edward. I'm with you on this. It's a tempting fallacy, but a fallacy nonetheless. The main thing that determines whether a person speaks a language
perfectly and without accent (the native vocabulary and grammar aside) is not exposure in the womb, but something like the psychology of
identification, and the chameleon's reflex to avoid a beating. Two brothers will often have different levels of "nativeness" in their use of a given
language, and close examination usually reveals that at critical moments one of them identified as e.g. "an American", or "un Francais", and the other
did not.
And on the "Jazz" issue too. Those of us who listen to a lot of music can spot Jazz on the first few notes or a bar, even though it's much harder to
formally define it. This is touchy territory. That stuff Chris is showing is NOT really Jazz. Nor is it Taqsim. Frankly I thank our lucky stars that
such music interests people, it's good for business, and musicians have to eat. And it's great that new things are being tried, new combinations will
lead to new forms. But it's not Jazz.
Maybe the "World Music" label is useful after all, though I guess it's supposed to cover "folk music" too. It's very tricky, like "New Age" being most
appropriate for very derivative and boring music, yet no better label exists to tag the much better music of Tangerine Dream or Vangelis, or Jean
Michel jarre.
And it's also right there, that Miles Davis and Coltrane played good Jazz, and David Sanborn does not. A lot of music I think is cursed with the
Fusion thing: appeal to somewhere in between, and it's good at nothing. But a lot of people like it. God bless them. As musicians the best thing we
can do is create, encourage others to create, and not worry about labels.
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Branko
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell |
This is a very sad myth I am afraid to say. .. And furthermore, a non-native speaker who learns another language well often speaks with more charm and
charisma than the native speaker - and it is the occational "mistake" and "mispronunciation" that gives this interesting flavour.
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You are right about charm and charisma, Edward, when it comes to chatting up ladies, but we are talking music here, so tempting analogy should not be
used, although charming. Gentlemen please, list the names of the westerners which will prove the fallacy. I'll help you with first name : Jalaludin
Weiss who lives there for many years and has converted to Islam (although, I haven't come across appreciation by native authority, yet). I bet, list
will be very short.
Dreamin' can help us to handle the truth and bit of self-flattery and vanity to keep us goin' as talent is a curse for one who is not the genius.
MeNoGenius just hold her for neck and pluck around hole.
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
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Location: Beirut
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The list probably won't be very long but worth making, I'd add to it: Marc loopuyt
A ref from David site
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/loopuyt.html
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Wrong again, my friend, I'm sorry to say. . . .  the list will be very long.
You made the point so go and research it yourself. You might be surprised.
However if you want proof - just look at the case of Western classical music now being played in Japan and Korea. 100 years ago nobody would ever have
expected that in the year 2000 many of the world's best western classical musicians would be Japanese or Korean! So give me one good reason why this
can not also become true for Western oudi's?
Nothing against Rabi and Anouar because I LOVE both of them AND their amazingly beautiful music! - but you will find plenty of non-native oudi's with
a higher level of technique and visible knowledge of maqamat than these two "native" players. In fact, these two players perfectly illustrate what I
am trying to say---- NOBODY will ever question the authenticity of Rabi or Anouar because as you say - "they heard it in the woom"... but take the
time and listen really really really close to these two guys. And then compare to some highly developed "non-native" players.... and then think
again.
Unfortunately we live in a very biased and racist world.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
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Dear Edward, I don't understand why words like racism are coming into the discussion. From my side I assure you that I don't believe in any form of
genetic predisposition that would make an Arab or a Turk a better musician when it comes to Oriental music.
I think it is about the time that someone puts into it and how young h'd start.
The main reason for Japanese, Korean and now Chinese excellence in classical music is the number and the level of the institutions and conservatories
that are teaching classical music in their own countries and the age kids star learning at.
When it comes to Arabic music, things are less easy, people like Weiss, loopyut and yourself have to go in a long and complicated quest where you have
to really dig to find good teachers and references, even for natives it has become very difficult to find a serious musical education.
I love the work of Weiss and Loopyut and hope that the list would become very llong.
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