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fernandraynaud
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But we all know concepts are best evaluated by their fruit. An exclusionary hex can be as easy to support, analytically, as an inclusionist charm, but
the latter is a more positive magic.
There were two idiot brothers named Jetto and Cesar bumbling in the Val d'Aosta some years ago. A combination of pity, sympathy and expediency caused
many a tourist to drop coins into their outstretched paws, especially when they started up their "song". The black & white nuns who herded them
told us many important details, like the futility of giving money to Little People who could never remember where they hid it. This also made a good
argument for giving the money, instead, to the saintly penguins who looked after them.
More relevant to the thread was their assurance that the song the dwarfs had learned was by those famous Americans, the Eberly Brothers. I'm sure I
don't have to tell you that, convinced as they were of what it was that they were singing, their performance bore little resemblance to the original.
And that is how many new art forms are created. Had someone convinced Mick Jagger, or Eric Clapton, that as a white Englishmen they could never play
authentic blues, it would have been a serious loss, and it would have been incorrect. If not for them, nobody would have listened to those old blues
records dug out of yard sale boxes, and the next stage in the history of Blues might not have happened. Be kind to your village idiots, inside the
womb or not -- they are the world! 
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Aymara
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... and his/her talent ... some people have the luck to be able to learn faster 
| Quote: | | ..., even for natives it has become very difficult to find a serious musical education. |
Interesting point. What about Naseer Shamma's oud school? Is that an exception?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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Perhaps "racism" is too strong a word. But it seems to me that discrimination is a form or racism. However I admit that the discrimination I am
objecting to is in fact not out of racism, but rather ignorance and prejudice. When I say prejudice I mean "pre-judging".... which comes from the
myths we were discussing earlier.
I have experienced this myself profoundly. I don't consider myself God's gift to the sitar, however I studied it seriously for many years. Finally it
got to the point where lesser qualified Indian players would get the calls for work before me - why? The problem here is that in Europe almost nobody
is truly able to evaluate the quality of a musician playing Indian music, because nobody has the experience or education in that music. So how are
people supposed to judge you if you come along and say you play Indian music? The simply can not. So they will always play it safe and choose the
Indian over the whitey. And the same goes for the audience.... they will be more likely to go hear an Indian, when in truth he may in fact not be
qualified to play in tune.
In my own case, this scenario (along with a few other things) prompted me after 20 years, to drop playing the sitar and pure Indian classical music.
This is a pity for me, and also a pity for Indian classical music (which is slowly dying as we speak, and NEEDS people to learn it and teach it).
But we all must eat something and earn a living and also receive a certain amount of recognition for years and years of struggle and sacrifice.
I know I sound bitter, but in truth I am not blaming anyone - and the situation is totally understandable. I personally would be very reluctant to go
to a bar to hear a Blues band from Thailand  ---I mean, it just
doesn't seem to fit. YOU GOT ME THERE BRANKO BUDDY 
And I can tell you another thing.... I have also devoted a lot of time and energy into Middle-eastern music. But I have recently decided that I will
simply no longer associate myself with any particular country or culture when marketing myself as a musician. I will simply state that I have traveled
and studied a lot and have absorbed a lot of influences. I have simply become totally fed up with coming up again and again against a brick wall
simply because of the colour of my skin and the place of my birth.
[but to be fair, I also appreciate the advantages I also enjoy because of those this as well].
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Edward Powell
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | And that is how many new art forms are created. Had someone convinced Mick Jagger, or Eric Clapton, that as a white Englishmen they could never play
authentic blues, it would have been a serious loss, and it would have been incorrect. If not for them, nobody would have listened to those old blues
records dug out of yard sale boxes, and the next stage in the history of Blues might not have happened. Be kind to your village idiots, inside the
womb or not -- they are the world!
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BRAVO!!!
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Edward Powell
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...just came back from there. It depends what you want to learn... I think it is great that it is there and it exists - but I have some serious
criticisms also. I found the general maqam knowledge of the teachers very low. And there is a tendency to encourage guitar-type playing on oud.
One of the teachers there explained it to me openly. He said that at the Arab Oud House they are very very very open - - one day they will play
reggae, next day "jazz", next day maqam, next day funk. . . . but the Turks! The Turks only play Turk! That's all they do (very closed
people).
Good or Bad just depends on your point of view I guess, but from my own point of view I was in oud HEAVEN in Istanbul and a kind of oud HELL in Cairo.
[but it can be the opposite for a more "open-minded" person I guess )
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ALAMI
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I have to agree with Edward regarding Shamma's school, we are seeing a scary proliferation of young Naseer clones, speed machine with very shallow
maqam knowledge. I was lately talking with a young and excellent player, technically speaking. I had an old record of Nakshabandi playing, and the
young oudist told me that this is the school of "sleeping on the note".
The "non natives" that are digging for the roots may be a chance for Classical Arabic music, people like Weiss are a better influence for young
Aleppan musicians than a new Shamma school in Aleppo.
I understand your frustration Edward and I think that getting an " Arab" recognition would be more important for you than Europeans not buying into
your being good in oriental music.
I've seen once Weiss on Qanun with the late Adib AlDayekh, only two men on stage and one of the best moments of tarab I've ever witnessed.
.....And we keep drifting off topic on this thread.
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fernandraynaud
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Such a difficult topic. I have never liked what Shamma does, because it is guitar-like in too many ways, and ... I have heard much better and much
faster guitar. Frankly, I don't think this is open to rational debate: accurately intonating chords and finger-picking on an oud may be difficult, but
that doesn't make it admirable, it makes it silly. Use the right tool for the job.
The same goes for those symphonic pieces with oud, I can't fathom why they are so exceptionally terribly awful, except that they completely fail to
take advantage of what an oud can do, and try to be something else.
But when I first heard Riyad Al Sunbati, this was unique, and I knew I had never heard anything better. Give me sleeping on the note, any day.
I'm going to say something that may cause this thread to go ballistic: it's going to take some fresh outsiders to take Near Eastern music to its next
stage, just as it will take some non-western musical ideas to take western music to its next phase. I don't think we need to do, or can do, much about
it, one way or another, it will happen anyway.
This womb-listening is I think a pervasive (and persuasive) chauvinistic nonsense, so those of you who by birth and culture can lay claim to
womb-listening, please reach out and pat those who are learning Maqamat on the back when it sounds good, when you can say "I heard Taqsim in the womb,
and what you play may not be that, but it moves me", because people who are learning their own way but respect your traditions, want and need your
approval or critique.
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ALAMI
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud |
it's going to take some fresh outsiders to take Near Eastern music to its next stage,
This womb-listening is I think a pervasive (and persuasive) chauvinistic nonsense,
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Now you make me really think of the late and great REAL Fernand Raynaud in his famous and hilarious sketch about racism, remember who was making the
French bread ?
I totally agree with you on this one
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Branko
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Dear
That "womb-listening" is my figurative expression for environment in which one develops. So, please, spare me from politically correct righteous
tirade. Have you noticed at the footer of my posts that I declared my origins, so I am one of "who are learning Maqamat on the back" in your words and
certainly not surrogate chauvinist for Arabs or any maqamat nation. I'll tell you an anecdote as illustration, although not maqamat-land related:
I have admired work in the field of folk music of a young ('genetically correct') clarinet player, graduate and masters degree from reputable European
academy, as he was creative virtuoso with in depth knowledge of traditional music also. On other hand I had luck to accompany on few gigs a "hard
core" folk clarinet virtuoso, as I befriended him, I put CD of the other guy on and asked for opinion. Did not take long to get answer: he is
excellent player but won't get a cent in tips on a wedding.
I just have doubts that anyone from Edwards secret list would excite audience like Farido did.
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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fernandraynaud
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"I just have doubts that anyone from Edwards secret list would excite audience like Farido did."
No idea, I don't know who's on his list. My sentence about learning Maqamat was a request to "pat .. on the back .." people who are learning Maqamat
with respect. That's all.
The passing of traditions through unexpected hands has happened many times in various areas. The Baron D'Erlanger was no womb-listener, yet without
his "hobby" and his Tunisian intellectual friends, the 1932 Cairo conference would not have happened, and much knowledge would have faded before it
could be captured. Farid would perhaps then have played sambas and not taqasim, though I suspect to just as much enthusiasm, as he was a charismatic
person.
Cuban music owes a lot to the lucky making of Buena Vista Social Club and Ry Cooder's recordings. In Madagascar, much of the music was being lost and
I'd have to look up the guy's name, but it was a Welsh guy as I recall who had learned the songs from tapes that were made as part of a bureaucratic
project and were already lost on the island, and when he visited Madagascar, he taught a new generation the music their parents had already forgotten.
In western music it's the same thing. Bach's music was rediscovered after two centuries of forgetting, and much of Scarlatti's is being discovered as
we speak. The operas of the 17-18th century were buried by the more dramatic 19th century ones. And of course the harpsichord and clavichord are just
now being built according to original plans again, after being wrecked as "instruments of the old regime" at the end of the 18th century, then
finished off as firewood because the piano was "more modern". A century and a half passed and a show-woman named Landowska was to the harpsichord (on
a more modest scale) what Farid was to the oud. A technician named Zuckermann designed a simple lightweight harpsichord that he semi-mass-produced and
sold as low cost "kits" of parts, and with so much success, that he single-handedly placed more harpsichords (some 15,000 of them) on the planet than
all his predecessors combined, turning it into a "normal" instrument again.
These discontinuities happen all the time. History and culture take sharp turns for unexpected reasons, and the greatest traditions sometimes
disappear or are carried on by "miracles". So, it's not a politically correct tirade dealing with Arabic music, and not at all critical of you.
----------------------
Ich bin ein Erdenbürger
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Aymara
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And this is the boat, Anour, Rabih and all the other musicians mentioned in this thread are traveling in.
And I myself, being less talented, jumped in a small canoe and try to travel in the same direction
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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My friend... perhaps you are stuck in a time-warp? The key word here is "did". You are refering to a period of time - a golden age for the oud when
it was considered by the masses as the coolest instrument around. Today this is not so.
Please tell me ONE from your not-so-secret "correct-womb" list that as you say "excites an audience like Frido did".
Sorry to tell you - NOBODY, "womb-correct" or not, is coming remotely close to this now --- and it has very little to do with oud playing talent.
It is a bit like, 'go on stage now and do what Hendrix did... nobody will hardly bat an eye.... but look at the impact Jimi had in HIS
TIME!.
So be fair, and keep your arguments in the correct time zone.
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Edward Powell
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I am not trying to blow my own horn, and I don't even know if I would put myself on "that list"... but just to illustrate that people CAN be excited
about a Western oud player - have a listen to this and read the 2 comments made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXqyPdCbemI
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JamesOud
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Im sorry but Arabic music is strongly linked with language, poetry, phrasing and social understanding. It is this reason of why Western players are
not accepted in the Arab world. The exception is unless they live, learn the environment, its people and language. But most Estern players look for
the easy way out once they learn a couple of maqams and releatively make the instrument sound good.
Alot of the repertoire are songs, and re-'voicing' then on the oud. How can a western player do play them, if he/she doesnt understand the words or
language. In this case although melodically ok and maybe technique ok, they still are not feeling the words and the meaning behind it. Alot has to do
with society and we cant dismiss this.
Im sorry if this upsets someone, but just learn the language and take time to study the culture and it will give more of a platform of understanding
the music.
Oum Kalsoum for instance can be hard to stand for Arabs, due to the classical Arabic, but once you understand and feel the words you can play with
more expression with a strong grounding behind what your playing. Not just imitators.
Some people just want an express route to Arabic music, but its not just notes and maqams, its language, culture and society.
Thanks
Thats my two cents worth...
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Edward Powell
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Very good point.... however on this thread we are not talking about strictly Arabic music.
If this argument would be used in general about oud music or perhaps all music... then I would say that it is another myth. I think it depends from
music to music, culture to culture, and this point can not be taken as omnipresent universal rule.
Tons of great music is simply 100% instrumental with no connection at all to poetry and society. Why should an Arab maqam then be any different? Is it
not a bit chauvenistic to proclaim that a person ignorant of Arabic language and society is incapable of producing excellent meaningful music simply
with good technique, knowledge of Arabic melodic grammer, and a ton of ROCKnROLL SOUL
the point I would like to suggest is that at the bottom of it all - perhaps what makes music meaningful or not has little or nothing to do with
language, culture, society, maqamat, sound, technique, speed, fashion, advertising, or any of these things. . . . but rather the quality of feeling
which is communicated thru the music?
my 4 piesters 
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JamesOud
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"Why should an Arab maqam then be any different?"
Because "Arab maqam" is Arab and unfortunately has strong links to language and culture. If you want to form other forms and 'Westernise' it then
maybe it should be Western maqam and should not look to fit into the Arab world or an Arab audience. Its the harsh truth Im sorry.
You brought up about acceptance (using Indians as example), and Im giving you my opinion on why Westerners as oud players are harder to accept.
"Tons of great music is simply 100% instrumental with no connection at all to poetry and society"
- Unfortunately this doesnt apply to Arabic Music, only in some cases but it is a very small part of the overall, hence why its hard to win over and
Arab audience.
Cant the west even leave the Arabs with their music or do they want to take to
"their" next level, trying again to improve because Arabs arent good enough. If you want to play the oud, respect the culture, learn about it and as
much as you can about language etc, but dont just create a music which is half as good due to the fact people want the express route. And couldnt be
bothered with all the other stuff which people in the Arab region are born with. With life comes certain ornaments, certain feelings, learn them first
and then do what you want with the oud and music.
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Edward Powell
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I hear in this that the author is under the impression (illusion?) that the "oud" and it's music belongs to "Arabs". And that in the "Arab region"
there are only Arabs.
Let's forget about Westerners for a moment, and consider: Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Jews, Berbers.... just to mention a few.
Are you saying that even these people can simply forget about trying to make meaningful music on an oud?
"Cant the west even leave the Arabs with their music" Thier Music?? Is the author suggesting that Arabs invented created and developed this music
without any "outside" influences?
Can the author tell us what exactly is an "Arab Maqam", which ones, and why it is assumed to be purely Arabic?
Thanks
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JamesOud
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I only mention "Arab maqam" because you used this term. Hence that would refer to Arab maqams. If you said "Turkish Maqam" that would do with Turks
and "Iraqi maqam" to Iraq. But again I only used that because you right it previously and Im actually quoting you on "Arab maqam"
These cultures you mention: Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Jews, Berbers, all have a tradition and their music, and language and society which
implements oud. And those people do it well.
A musician that refuses or is lazy to learn about other aspects about the culture and have a respect for the music and its origin is a shallow
musician and that will show in his/her music unless the listeners are also likewise.
If a Western person wants to be an oud player, or any one wants to be an oudplayer they should learn certain aspects, of the WHOLE culture, not just
bits and pieces, creating a mishmash with no prior knowledge.
You also say "perhaps what makes music meaningful or not has little or nothing to do with language, culture, society, maqamat, sound, technique,
speed, fashion, advertising, or any of these things"
Then what music is this? obviously nothing of substance just noise created by a person in the hope people will relate. Study, learn and all will be
ok!
Its my view and by nop means an authority just an observation. I cant hold people back from taking musical short cuts, just dont be upset that Arabs
dont want to accept it.
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Branko
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| Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell |
My friend... perhaps you are stuck in a time-warp? The key word here is "did". You are refering to a period of time - a golden age for the oud when
it was considered by the masses as the coolest instrument around. Today this is not so.
Please tell me ONE from your not-so-secret "correct-womb" list that as you say "excites an audience like Frido did".
Sorry to tell you - NOBODY, "womb-correct" or not, is coming remotely close to this now --- and it has very little to do with oud playing talent.
It is a bit like, 'go on stage now and do what Hendrix did... nobody will hardly bat an eye.... but look at the impact Jimi had in HIS
TIME!.
So be fair, and keep your arguments in the correct time zone.
.... I am not trying to blow my own horn, and I don't even know if I would put myself on "that list"... but just to illustrate that people CAN be
excited about a Western... |
Dear Edward,
I was referring to audience not masses. As for the not-so-secret list just visit Oudism, Taqsim MP3 and Oud Videos sections on this site.
Let me help you to decide if you should be on the "list". Here is excerpt from one of your many performances you posted on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KverV8vgV18&feature=related from about 5th min to 7th min, which someone commented with"Ed you kick
ass....very cool music "
Unfortunately, I will be in the time-warp for a while and unable to attend this thread.
Kind regards
Branko
Attachment: edward.mp3 (443kB)
This file has been downloaded 197 times
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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Aymara
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I think, this is an important point ... there are already many very good native musicians and for Westerners it's very hard to compete with them.
Let's compare with a Japanese Heavy Metal Band ... they might be very successful in Japan, but in Europe or the USA they will have problems to get
accepted ... there's too much native competition and from the point of view of Westerners, a Japanese Metal musician might look strange.
With our mentioned Jazz musicians like Anouar or Rabih it's different, from the point of view of Westerners they try to enrich Jazz with "new exotic"
influences.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud |
A musician that refuses or is lazy to learn about other aspects about the culture and have a respect for the music and its origin is a shallow
musician and that will show in his/her music unless the listeners are also likewise.
If a Western person wants to be an oud player, or any one wants to be an oudplayer they should learn certain aspects, of the WHOLE culture, not just
bits and pieces, creating a mishmash with no prior knowledge.
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I agree... and have also experienced - that one must go to the country of origin and experience the place --- the longer one stays and the deep
one goes into the native culture, the more the resulting music will sound like it comes from that country.
But in my experience, as I have experienced in both Indian and to a lesser extent in the Middle-east, there come a point where one must decide how far
to go. There are some Westerners who attempt to basically go all the way and then play only music from that country. . . . this is fine.
Personally, I always find there is a point where I feel enough is enough. I try to learn enough about a culture, and get enough exposure to instrument
IN that country - enough to feel that I have acquired a good grounding. Then I prefer to take that and use it to enrich what I have already
learned.
I spent 15 years as a professional guitarist - so if I would just drop all of that, it would be like cutting off my right arm. So I need to mix and
create new things.
However, as you mention, there is a problem with this. The problem is that WHO WILL RELATE TO THIS MUSIC? What tends to happen is that certain people
can relate only to certain parts of it - and the other parts disturb them a bit. The Turks and Arabs like the makam bits, and the Indians like the
raga bits, and the Westerners like the bluesy bits.....
The seems to be the curse of trying to create something new. But I personally don't find it artistically gratifying to repeat music that has already
been created.
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by Branko |
Unfortunately, I will be in the time-warp for a while and unable to attend this thread.
Kind regards
Branko
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Hey Bro,
Please don't take anything I said personally - I just like a good hot debate sometimes and I also like to challenge old myths... but at the end of the day to a large degree I agree with the points you were making. Of
course learning something from childhood give one a tremendous advantage... I only object to taking this argument to the extreme.
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fernandraynaud
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Told ya it might go ballistic! This is an important and delicate topic.
If we are talking oud, the majority here (per a short survey we did) plays "maqam-oriented music". That's interesting. WHY???
I can speak only for myself. I didn't expect it, but I too started learning Maqamat. Why?
Because the oud sounds best playing its interesting body of traditional music that struck me as unique and worth exploring. It's as if you stumbled on
a keyboard instrument that, unlike a piano, sounded fantastic playing improvised polyphonic counterpoint. That's how I got interested in Louis
Couperin's harpsichord preludes. The same way oud sounds best to my ears playing Taqasim, so I got very interested in Maqamat. And it's a whole world
I can only scratch. But, in all fairness, not many Arabs are even scratching it, let alone deeply learning it.
I don't think it's likely that westerners will learn more than a little bit of that tradition, but what I've learned I'm applying in my music, not
Arabic music. Nothing I will ever play can be considered Arabic music.
There's a problem here that can only be solved with goodwill. If we westerners play Arabic style, are we "trespassing", and we are "not deep enough"
in the tradition anyway?
If we somehow learned the language and culture for a few decades, then maybe we'd be accepted, but I doubt it, and if we were to be very gifted and
innovate in that style, we'd perhaps be seen as insultingly telling native players they can't do it on their own.
If we learn some Maqam theory to use in western music, are we stealing? I think I've heard that one too. Maybe not?
I happen to think that people cannot own the wind. Or sounds.
The oud can be a messenger between cultures that desperately need such a messenger. I think the majority of members here know it and want it. I'm not
sure how to best support it. Just keep doing what we're doing I guess.
Discussions like this one cannot be expected to be trouble-free, there's no need to censor or close threads. It's nice, however, to hear an
encouraging word now and then.
Branko, taking 2 minutes of improv out of context I think we can make anybody sound boring. Are you saying Edward's a lousy improviser?
If your argument was that only womb-listeners can know a tradition, and you said you are not one of those, then I'm feeling confused: what is your
proposition?
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JamesOud
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"But, in all fairness, not many Arabs are even scratching it, let alone deeply learning it. "
Theres plenty of great Arab oud players, what is this comment based on. recordings in the marketplace, or the limited Western view?
The West often forgets there are musicians in the Middle East that havent made it to light. So mass generalisations like that are only generalisations
unless you have lived all over the Arab world.
People can imitate and regurgitate, fine. Learn A technique, fine. But what Im saying, the music has deeper groundings in other artforms aswell as in
language, poetry etc. These must be learned, even as a respect to a tradition. Its not about regurgitating, its about learning and growing from it.
Theres the saying you have to walk before you can run. Some players just want to start running and thats the problem. Im not saying a Western player
may not be able to feel the oud, the oud is for everybody, but Im talking about Westerners that want to "grow" the music, when they themselves have
problems with basic concepts in the music. If theyre not fooling the audience, then they are fooling themselves.
Everybody can be accepted as long as they are willing to learn and emerse themselves in the culture and then its there choice to use it or not, and
the art grows from something rather than growing from a couple of recordings and a copuple of maqams.
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Branko
Oud Junkie
Posts: 138
Registered: 4-14-2006
Location: Perth, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: !?
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Just before dropping into time-warp, I owe this to Edward:
I am not saying Edward's a lousy improviser! I am saying that humility is the virtue on eastern hemisphere.
I am not pissed off. I have gig in two weeks and my mind and time will be dedicated to "oriental jazz- no jazz at all- what ever we call it",
supprised by choice of the genre by the chauvinistic zealot? 
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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