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Author: Subject: Building oud rosettes
maqamworld
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[*] posted on 3-15-2005 at 07:41 AM
Building oud rosettes


:airguitar:

does anyone have any practical experience building oud rosettes (also called shams, shamsiyyah, and incorrectly qamra, qamriyyah) ?

I just bought some tools and material and started cutting my first rosette from laminated wood.

Im trying to improve the process and would love to trade experience.

salam ya shabab
Johnny
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spyrosc
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[*] posted on 3-15-2005 at 10:41 AM
Rosettes


There was a thread here about a year ago about a place that would cut your rosettes by laser. Elie Riachi had identified them. If you do a search for user Elie and rosettes you will probably find it.

Also you are half-right about the name. Traditionally the large one was the Shamsiya (for the Sun) and the two small ones were Qamariya (for the Moon)

Spyros C.
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Dr. Oud
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[*] posted on 3-16-2005 at 07:38 PM


Rosettes can be carved or sawn out with a jeweler's filagree saw. You'll need a v-notch support for the sawing method. The job can take many hours or even days to complete depending on the complexity of the design. Laser cutting services can make rosettes from CAD files:
http://www.pololu.com/laser_cutting.html




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revaldo29
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[*] posted on 3-16-2005 at 11:13 PM


Hey Doc,

How intricate can these laser cut-outs be. I've always wanted to have one of those really fancy nahat shamsiyya on my oud. Also, how hard is it to replace a rosette?
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Elie Riachi
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[*] posted on 3-17-2005 at 03:49 PM


Adnan,

More intricate than the roses in my oud which I designed and had laser cut. the thread also includes details about installation. http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=862#pid6027
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maqamworld
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[*] posted on 3-18-2005 at 08:53 AM


Thanks everybody for the really useful input.

I have pretty much managed to cut a small rosette from laminated birch with a really fine jeweler's saw.

now I want to kick things up a notch!

How about using bone ? :)

let's face it. there's nothing like a beautiful antique bone rosette.

- what kind of bone (cow, buffalo, camel, etc ?)

I assume it will be made from the shoulder blade since it's the thinnest, flatest and has the most surface area.

- Where can I get these bones ?

- Can the rosette be made of several thin strips glued together or should it always be made of one piece ?

- Can the bone be cut without re-inforcement (glueing a layer of laminated wood beneath it) ?

- Can the bone be cut by laser ?

Johnny
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[*] posted on 3-18-2005 at 10:16 AM


Johhny,

I'm in the same stage as you. I'm going to do some bone work on my current project. Here's my answers for your questions:

You can get bone from luthier supplies. I'm planning to buy several guitar saddle blanks and glue them together. It most likely can't be made from one piece, too big. Maybe for the small roses. Nahat roses are made from several strips.

I've tried resawing bone for my roses, but it's a hell of a job. Smelly, slow, and it dulls the bandsaw. I've found some suppliers on ebay who are selling saddles for about $1 each. I'm not sure of the quality, but I'll let you know when I get some.

Cutting the bone on its own will be very difficult due to its brittle nature. I wouldn't even waste my time. Another material possibilty is corian. It's used for countertops. It may also require a backing of wood if used thin, but it may cut fine if thicker, it is however heavier than bone on wood, and I'm a bit of a traditionalist, it would kind of bug me to use corian. Plastics were available to the Nahats in their later years, but they still used bone or ivory.

You'd have to ask a laser cutting service about the bone, but the edges will be black from burning either way. I personally like the thickness to show on the rose a bit.




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maqamworld
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[*] posted on 3-18-2005 at 11:57 AM


Jameel,

thanks for the input man,

I found a web site that supplies raw animal bone, they have really large shoulder blades:

http://www.clawantlerhide.com/skullsbones.htm

I will try my luck with these, although they have to be cut and sanded into strips then glued.

Let's see if guitar saddle blanks work better. I dont want to use corian, it's so synthetic, wood (laminated birch) is much better already.

There must be a way to cut bone without damaging it, how did the old nahhat guys do it with their limited technology ?! Maybe glueing a layer of wood during cutting, the removing it afterwards ? can that be done ?

Johnny :cool:
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Dr. Oud
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[*] posted on 3-19-2005 at 07:24 AM


The jeweler's filigree saw will cut bone, no worries. I've seen some Nahat roses with solid bone inserts, but the full bone or ivory roses wre glued on a wood plate, about 1/4 inch (6mm) thick. I used 1/8 inch maple with ivory on my Georges replica, and the ivory still warped. Bone is more stable, for sure. Remember that the Nahat family was in Damascus, where the finest steel at the time was made. In addition the Arabs were performing surgery since the 13th century, so they had very good cutting tools, I'm certain.

Georges Nahat (the last maker before the expulsion) used plastic roses, but still hand cut them up to 1958 a least. The later geometric designs were copied and molded, but without their name calligraphy centerpiece.

A tip about gluing the rose in: Insert the rose dry, tie the string loops loosely around the sticks so there is a bit of a gap between the face and the rose. Apply glue on the rose under the face edge, then push some blocks under the sticks to pull the rose up snug.




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maqamworld
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[*] posted on 3-21-2005 at 12:31 PM


I spoke to Najib Shaheen yesterday about rosettes, he reckons the best way to proceed with today's ingredients and technology is using guitar saddle blanks (you need about 10 of them) and glueing them on laminated birch using epoxy glue. He recommended this rather than bothering with homemade large strips of bone. According to him if the saddle blanks are well cut the joints will not be visible much. Im waiting for Jameel's experiment results (I might try that myself too).
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[*] posted on 3-21-2005 at 03:05 PM


Johnny,

I'm working on getting some bone for cheap ($3 each is too much for me!). Stay tuned.




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[*] posted on 6-27-2010 at 04:42 PM


does anyone know where I can buy the three rosettes for my oud. i have a oud that came with cheap, cheesy looking brown plastic ones, but the oud sounds so good I just had to take them out. Looking for replacements that are of some quality.
D.
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[*] posted on 6-27-2010 at 05:45 PM


How about the bone and horn blanks they use for knife handles? They are called "scales" and if you enter "bone scales" on e-bay there are many.
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[*] posted on 6-28-2010 at 12:09 AM


Thanks, I'll check it out.
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[*] posted on 6-28-2010 at 12:33 AM


Hi,

if you are in Europe, check here.

A little pricey but seems of good quality..

Dan
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[*] posted on 6-28-2010 at 07:32 AM


Thank you for that, but I'm in USA. Maybe just keeping the open holes is good too. A zen look...
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[*] posted on 6-28-2010 at 12:05 PM


Or you could make your own cow bone strips. See my current thread 'Making Bone Nuts from 'Scratch' further down the page on this forum.
I suspect that shoulder blade bone may be porous in character (not to mention not being flat) and so unsuitable for making into bone veneer.
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