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Peyman
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That's an amazing rebab Dincer bey. I like the beautiful inlay down the neck. I am curious to know if you ever made any tanburs or saz's.
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oudmaker
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Peyman
I sent you an U2U
Dincer
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi guys, nice to see the 'pipa thread lives on....
Dincer: What a beautiful instrument, very tasteful decorative touches, from the inlay down to the delicate shaping of the bottom spike. Thanks so
much for posting the picture.
Randy: Very glad to hear that the erhu playing is coming together. Yeah, I'd imagine the right strings make a lot of difference!.... The erhu's
sound is very susceptible to small changes in pressure and tension, each of which can be affected significantly by the string you're trying to use.
For future reference, can you post info on where you got yours?
As to the bow, I think the proper tension is to some extent a function of the tightness of the strings - if the strings are very tight (due to the
pitch, or in combination with the type of string being used), I've had better results with a slacker bow, and vice versa in the case of loose strings.
I guess it's a balance thing (yin-yang, since we're dealing with an erhu, after all?)...
To be honest, the whole question of (mechanical) bow tension is a much bigger issue if you're using a "western" bow hold, like a violin or cello (the
fact that you asked the question at all leads me to guess that you probably are). If you use the eastern style, palm facing you, thumb on top of the
wood and fingers pressing down on the hair, the issue doesn't come up as much because you control/adjust the bow tension on an ongoing, moment by
moment basis. Also, when using this grip, feel free to creep up the shaft of the bow, well past the frog, to wherever you get the most satisfactory
control over the sound. Depending on the bow, the instrument, and your playing style, this may be several inches up from the frog!
Finally, a little note on the pipa itself, the "raison d'etre", I guess, of this thread. I've had my pipa for some weeks now, and have been
experimenting with different strings and tunings. Right now I'm using DADG (lowest to highest), although I'm getting the impression that DADA is
probably more conventional. The strings that came with the instrument were silk wound, and had an interesting sound when open, but simply were too
old to play in tune when using the frets. For now, I've substituted a mix of silk wound and classical guitar strings, stuff available locally.
Long term, I have little doubt I'll be better served by obtaining strings specifically designed for the pipa - a young friend of mine just started a
job teaching English close to Nanjing - I'm hoping she'll be able to help me out in this respect.
The pipa's frets are quite a new experience. They're wood, for starters, rather than nylon or metal. The high frets (located on the body of the
instrument) are 3/8 " elevated, while the lowest frets (nearest the pegs) are elevated up to 3/4 "! Though quite workable, it's a very different
feeling than playing a guitar, lavta or saz..... Sort of like playing on a trampoline or high wire!
The other thing that's physically different is the weight of the instrument. My lavta is extremely light, by comparison to a steel string, or
classical guitar, but the pipa is much more heavy than either of them. For a while, the sheer weight made me think that the body of the instrument
was a solid block of wood (no resonating chamber at all) but I've modified this over hasty opinion - the soundboard has a hollow, rather than a solid
wood sound when knocked, and there is a soundhole, albeit a very small one, hidden away under the bridge/tailpiece, part of which is raised over the
hole.
Oh yes, and then there's the upright playing position..... Also very workable, but sooo different.... It's quite a tall instrument, which means your
left hand (fingering the notes) goes some distance up into the air, even more so than when playing the cello, say....
For now, the pipa "lives" at my office, together with my kemence. My current practice pattern involves playing some lavta and classical guitar in
the morning before work, a bit of pipa and kemence in my office at the end of the working day, after the rest of the staff have left for home, and
bowed strings in the evening, back at home. I've now got quite a few of the latter to chose from, though right now my favorites are erhu, lyra and
gusle - the gusle is my most recent acquisition, a one stringed Balkan bowed instrument, similar in construction to the kemence, but with a hide top.
I don't have a digital camera of my own yet, so I'm a little restricted in my ability to post pictures. I'm hoping to borrow one in the next little
while, and hopeful post a few shots of some of the instruments in question.
Take care, all....Mark
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hurdygurdyguy
Oud Lover
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Erhu bow source
Mark,
Here's the url for the source I found for my erhu bow:
http://www.chineseculture.net/guqin/instruments/erhuist.html#
I found another site (http://learningobjects.wesleyan.edu/vim/cgi-instrument.cgi?id=19) with a nice performance on streaming video. What was most intereseting to me was
how slack the bow hair is, plus your advice is most enlightening
Well, I'm off to practice!!
Randy
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handiro
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First let me say I am delighted to see such interesting threads in this forum and to read the many
well written posts by the members here.
Much has been said and I think most of it is right. I want to add a little spice to the discussion by
adding another instrument to the family : the Sarod .
Since I have played the Oud in India I have been told by my musician friends to pick up the Sarod, so I started buying records of various artists and
listening, pretty soon I decided Amjad Ali Khan to be among my preferred players. I had the luck to meet him 2 months ago and he told me about his
website and what do I find there ?
A story of the Rabab and how it developed into the Sarod. One thing I found interesting: the Rabab he cites has a skin covered top! So does the Sarod
.
here is the link:
http://sarod.com/sarod/default.htm
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hurdygurdyguy
Oud Lover
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Erhu bow source again
Sorry, folks...I mis-typed the url for the Wesleyan.edu site
Here it is:
http://learningobjects.wesleyan.edu/vim/cgi-bin/instrument.cgi?id=1...
That should work...
Randy
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi again...
Handiro: Thanks for your contribution to this thread. The sarod is a beautiful instrument, with a rich tradition and outstanding living and
recently deceased performers, who have given the world many compelling recordings to listen and learn from. Though the sitar tends to have a much
higher profile, I personally find myself rather more drawn to the sound of the sarod, which is mellower, with less "twang". Its playing range seems
to involve some lower pitches as well, more in the same range explored by oud and lavta players - maybe another reason that it seems to "fit" for me,
more easily than the sitar, at least for the time being. I'm seriously considering getting one sometime in the next year or two, but they usually
aren't cheap, so some planning and budgetting will be involved....
You mentioned the Afghan style rebab as well, an instrument which is usually acknowledged as the precursor of the sarod. There is an American jazz
player named Larry Porter who learned to play both sarod and Afghan style rebab, becoming something of a virtuoso on the rebab, at least. There are
some lovely recordings of his rebab playing available, (in their entirety, for free, in streaming format) on his website http://eastwestmusic.com/listen.htm.
My favorite from this site is the "concert under the stars" http://eastwestmusic.com/listen_02.htm
It's a live concert, available in what appears to be its entirety, originally performed at a park in Berlin in 2001 with an Afghan-born tabla player.
It's perfect, down to little touches like the background noise from nearby young children.... wonderful, both poised and spontaneous, the way music
should be.... I can't recommend it highly enough! It's hard to hear recordings like this and not want to go out and get a rebab too! So little
time, so much music and so many instruments.....
Randy: Thanks so much for the reference re the erhu materials. I'm very glad you're giving so much time and attention to the erhu. I encourage
you to bring up whatever you may have questions about - I know it's sometimes a little hard to find teachers or peers on this instrument, when in a
North American location, so I'll do what I can to help out. With the amount of practice you seem to be putting in, I'm sure that I'll soon be the
one asking you for advice!
Take care all, Mark
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kasos
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Hi again...Can't take credit for finding this myself, Peyman sent it to me in a recent E-mail. Further to the initial mandate of this thread,
being to explore the links between pipa and oud/barbat, please find at this location http://www.shayda.net/Barbad.html a well researched investigation into precisely this question. Summary: lots of cultural and linguistic
reasons to link the two - notably, because of transliteration of b's into p's, pipa may actually be the Chinese way of pronouncing barbat.
All the best, Mark
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kasos
Hi again...Can't take credit for finding this myself, Peyman sent it to me in a recent E-mail. Further to the initial mandate of this thread,
being to explore the links between pipa and oud/barbat, please find at this location http://www.shayda.net/Barbad.html a well researched investigation into precisely this question. Summary: lots of cultural and linguistic
reasons to link the two - notably, because of transliteration of b's into p's, pipa may actually be the Chinese way of pronouncing barbat.
All the best, Mark |
Hi Mark,
Thank you so much for this wonderful link, and all your posters which have been very helpful. Indeed it is the most informative article I have read by
far about the origin of the pipa and its relation to the west. The phonetic approach from Barbad to pipa sounds very interesting. However,
archeological findings (from ancient tomb) show that the pipa before the 4th-5th century looks very different from Barbad or oud (see the attached
picture), whereas the present day pipa bares a strong mark of the barbad or oud. I am still not sure as to when the barbad or oud went to China.
From the written documents and archeological findings, the original pipa appeared to be made of a wooden drum and a long stick, with 4-5 strings and
fewer frets which are still in use by some minority in the remote area of south-west China (particularly in Yunnan province). In central China this
instrument developed and later around 6-7th century got the new name "ruan"; The new instrument which arrived from central Asia through the silk road
took over the name "pipa" which refered originally to the ruan. I am still not sure about the historical connection there.
All discussions along the thread is very enriching.
Peyman's and all other oud friends' posters have also been very helpful.
hurdygurdyguy's new erhu and oudmaker's Rebab are very impressive! I wish to hear how they sounds. You are very creative!
Thank you all for sharing your passion, ideas and knowledge.
Paul
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Nice to hear from you again Paul - I had my first pipa erhu duet session over the past weekend - seems to work best when the two instruments are
working in different octave ranges....
In particular, this approach to registration of arrangements seems to be greatly enabled by the fact that the pipa is very "live", in terms of volume
and tone quality, in its higher registers - I suppose this is probably a function of its long scale length, relative to the oud or even the lavta....
Of course, as a bowed instrument, the erhu has no problem maintaining a prominent level of sound in the high register - if anything, the effort is to
try to keep it from sounding shrill.... lots of vibrato, as per what seems to be the traditional style I've heard in recordings, apparently does the
trick in respect of the latter issue!
Mark
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Paul007
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Hi Mark,
I haven't heard a duet piece for pipa and erhu, and I'd love to hear how it works. If there is a chance that you post a clip of your recording, that
would be great.
I appreciate all info you have provided. I believe that you can be excellent ethnomusicologist.
Thank you.
Paul
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hurdygurdyguy
Oud Lover
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Location: Pacific Northwest
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Hey all (in re to Paul)!
Last month I had the pleasure of attending a Chinese Cultural Concert here in Bellingham which featured (among others) the Silk and Bamboo
Esemble, a group based in Vancouver, B.C. (I think) and performed stunning renditions of Chinese Folk melodies in addition to solo pieces on erhu,
gaohu, Jinghu, and pipa. The bowed intruments were amazing, but what truly popped my eyes and ears was the pipa solo!! The articulation, speed and
emotive nature of the musician (Liu Guilian fro, Beijing) was incredible...if ever there was a rock star equivalent in the world of pipa performers
she would be it, hands down!!
A truly remarkable evening!!
I continue to practice my erhu in short sessions almost everyday (almost...I don't subject my family to my enthusiasm on the weekends 
I agree with Mark, lots of vibrato definitely covers a world of sins!!
Randy
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Pipa seems to be a mostly female played instrument....
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hurdygurdyguy
Oud Lover
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Just another note:
My family and I will be spending about 2 months in the Middle East starting about the middle of May (barring any annoying political
developments)...mostly in southern Israel (at an archeological dig near Eilat), but hope to visit sites in Sinai and Jordan (would love to see Amman
again!!) What bowed and plucked instruments could anyone recommend I keep a lookout for? Is the kamancheh found here? or something similar? I'm
hoping to add to my ethnic instrument collection, something I could actually play rather than become a wall decoration!!
Randy
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi, Paul, Randy - I'm delighted to hear from you both.
Paul, thanks for your encouraging words.... Ethnomusicology was my major in my third year of my Bachelor of Music program, back in the early
1980's....So much has changed since then, both in the world and in my personal life. After graduating from the music faculty, I became a professional
pianist, then eventually went back to school and trained as a lawyer - now I'm an administrator in the public service. Back in the 1980's, in my
part of the world, period and ethnic instruments costed a fortune, if they were available at all, and things like the internet and Ebay didn't yet
exist.... So much more is possible now - I can access music and musical instruments in a way I could only dream of then.... and correspond with
wonderful people all across the world about the experience, in forums like this one.... Thanks again to Mike, whose magnificent obsession enriches us
all....
Randy - so nice to hear that you're persevering on the erhu. I also continue to play the instrument. Quite a bit lately, really. One of my
ex-violin students' mom is from Taiwan, and she got her relatives to send me real erhu strings....I agree with one of your posts above, to the effect
that getting the right strings is a very liberating thing - everything is easier, and sounds better.
Over and above the beneficial effects of having proper strings, and better vibrato - God bless you for remembering that hint! - I feel my playing has
made strides in other respects as well over the past little while, mostly due to a sort of intervalic tuning exercise I've been using - just in case
it's any help to you, let me describe it.
If I want to get an interval in better tune, say, E to G, I chose an alternate interval right beside the one I want to improve, one that involves
changing the reach of the finger that's prone to going out of tune. So if it's the top note that goes out of tune, I'll use E to G# as the
alternate, or set off interval, for purposes of the exercise.
First, I'll alternate the target and set off intervals - E G, E G#, E G, E G#, then I'll put in a slide between the target and set off note, as
follows:
E G slide to G#, E G# slide to G, E G slide to G#, E G# slide to G. Then I go back to the E G, E G# version, etc... until I'm "done to a turn"!
It may sound simplistic, but I've never found anything more effective for quickly teaching fingers where the proper intervals are. You still have
to listen, of course, to tell whether you're in tune or not, but I find this type of practicing makes my finger find the right pitch more quickly and
more often, and reduces the number and range of the small corrective pitch adjustments that one makes when you first hit the note slightly "off".
I have to admit that such corrective adjustments were becoming a real issue for me, since I now have a whole menagerie of bowed instruments that I'm
trying to keep abreast of, each with a different scale length, and many with somewhat different playing angles or string stopping techniques. I
found I needed something to speed my muscle memory along, and this really seems to be helping....
By the way, what I described above is the 'simple' or basic form of the exercise. If you find it useful, you can also profitably use it in an
extended form, where the fixed finger (the E in the version of the exercise described above) is exchanged for a fixed set of notes. So, instead of E
G E G E G# E G#, you might get D-E G, D-E G#, D-E G, D-E G#.... and then for the slides, D-E G slide G#, D-E G# slide G. [just in case it isn't
clear, the slide will involve the same finger on the G and G#, while the fixed pitch pair of notes (D-E) would involve changing fingers, probably the
index and middle finger in the example in question].
By the way, I've tried to adapt these exercises to my oud and lavta playing - they're helpful there too, but the slides are less satisfying because of
the lesser sustain on plucked instruments - the exercises really shine best in bowed string situations....
Moving along from pitch exercises, since my last post on this thread, I've also done a fair bit of playing on another recently acquired Chinese
instrument, related by nothing but its country of origin to either the erhu or pipa. I'm referring to the guzheng, a long oriental zither. This
one's about a yard long, rather short for a proper zheng, but it's doing the trick for now. It's got 16 strings, tuned pentatonically (going up) D E
G A B d e g a b d' e' g' a' b' d''. Each string has its own bridge, which can be moved to change the pitch (one can tune it like this, or change
the tension on the pin, whatever is easier). One can get very interesting bent pitch effects, by pressing down on the string on one side of the
bridge, either before, or after you pluck the note on the other side.
The guzheng's sound is quitessentially far eastern - similar intruments are played in Vietnam, Korea, and Japan (the Japanese version is called the
koto - if you're familiar with keyboard synthesizer/samplers, most of them will feature at least one koto preset). However, cultural/historical
considerations aside, on a practical level, it's a very gratifying instrument to play - the pitch bending is quickly mastered, and (I suppose I'm
exageratting, but only a little) the pentatonic scale tuning means "no wrong notes, ever!..." It's highly addictive, and I'm afraid that, before
too long, I'll have to find a way to get a full size one - not a small matter, literally, since they run to 5 and 6 feet long!....
With the addition of instruments like the guzheng, I'm closing in on my goal of acquiring all the instruments necessary for my Polo/Ibn Battuta
project. My most recent acquisition is a medieval style viele/rebec, to be used to help musically represent Polo's departure and final destination
point in medieval Italy. I'm also moving along in my historical research - I've made it through some very interesting book length commentaries on
both Polo and Ibn Battuta's journeys. I have to say, I've learned so much from the enterprise, and enjoyed it so much, that I feel it will have
justified my attention, whether or not it ever succeeds as a stage piece.....
All the best, Mark
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi Randy - seems you made a new post while I was drafting my latest voluminous response....serves me right for being so long winded!.... Your trip
sounds very exciting. I've never been to that part of the world myself, but, from the reading I've done, I expect you should be able to find some
sort of bowed instrument from the rebab family - the only question is what might be the local variant.
It seems to me that there was some discussion in a post earlier this year about a sort of flat rebab, with a skin (which apparently functions as a
sort of soundboard) stretched between a wooden frame. There was a suggestion that this was an instrument known and played in Syria (and further
south in Arabia, too, if a number of E-bay references I've seen are accurate) - if so, I would expect you'd find it in Jordan as well. There is
also an Egyptian instrument that seems to be most frequently referred to as a rebaba, which uses a coconut as a resonating box, covered by a skin
membrane. I would suspect that there are probably a few of these around, if one were to ask .... As for the Kamencheh, I've seen it discussed more
in the context of Turkey and Iran, though there's no reason it couldn't be present in Israel or Jordan as well....
As for plucked strings, I'm quite certain you'd find some interesting ouds, in either Israel or Jordan, at much more affordable prices than in North
America, given that you'd be taking care of the shipping yourself.....
Take care, Mark
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David Parfitt
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Mark,
You have probably seen it already, but I found a nice site relating to Ibn Battuta:
Ibn Battuta on the Web
Good luck with your project!
All the best
David
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
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Location: Nîmes France
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Do not forget this year is the 600th commemoration or anniversary (i do not know how to say in english) of Ibn Khaldoun, the great tunisian
(andalousian origin) scientist, philosopher, historien.
http://www.babelmed.net/index.php?menu=438&cont=1986&lingua...
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AGAPANTHOS
Oud Addict
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Hello Paul
I am going to say few words on this very interesting topic about the long origins of the oud. I believe that this effort in researching the evolution
of the instrument in time and in space is essential and valuable.
When we have to go back in the far past i think that it is better to do a lot of guessing, instead of being sure about anything.
As far as i know there are different approaches to this subject. The coexistance and the close interrelationship between the great ancient
civilisations of the greater East Mediterranean Bassin(Babylonian,Asyrian,Egyptian, Mycenean,Minoan,Classical Greek e.t..c)can give evidence that the
far past origins of the instrument were located in this geografical area.
The ancestor of the oud traveled a lot from place to place among the boarders of this vast region. The evolution of its shape and role were propably
slow and multilateral.
The main scenario i believe contains the following two essential stages:
-In the early Hellenistic period the ancient Greek Barbytos ( the origin of the Persian Barbat) took its way, from the Alexander the Great to Persia
, and from there and along "the Road of the Silk" arrived in China (the Chinese pipa).
-During the flourishing of the Arabic civilisation. from the 7th to 9th century,
a type of byzantine lute (descendant of the ancient Greek Barbytos)spread out within the Arabic pennisula. This instrument became one of the main
instruments which were used by the Arab theorists to develop the Arabic musical system. This instrument were propably the immediate ancestor of the
Arabic oud of our days.
It is well known that there are several versions of the Arabic oud today(the oud arbi, the oud sarki, the iraqui oud and the bashir oud).
It is true that the development of the Ottoman school of oud,although the establishment of the instrument in the corpus of the Ottoman music is
relatively new (from the end of the 18th century), is continuous,consistent and more coherant in comparison with the Arabic schools.
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Thanks, David and Zalzal, for your research recommendations.
I'm very pleased with the Ibn Battuta site, in particular. Though I'd seen some of the material it includes as links, somehow I'd missed it so
far.... Perhaps the person who assembled the site may have some insights to share about Battuta, or about my project. I'll probably try contacting
him, just in case, in the course of time...
Take care, Mark
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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Hi AGAPANTHOS
Thank you for the information. That is very interesting. Could you provide some references or sources?
Thank you
Paul
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Paul007
Oud Addict
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Hi Mark,
Your experiences and persistence in the arts are very impressive. I don't play any instruments, but have great interest in music, and the associated
history. The migration of instruments and the meeting of cultures in history in fascinating. I wish to have time to explore a little more along the
line.
Take care
Paul
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hurdygurdyguy
Oud Lover
Posts: 19
Registered: 11-24-2005
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Hey everyone!
Just a quick post on the pipa/oud/erhu thread:
I made some changes on my homemade erhu. As you can see I took off the block of wood the pegs were fitted through and refitted them through the
dowel. It does look less clunkier and better. I also changed the nut arrangement. Previously, I had the strings going over a wooden block that could
be slid back and forth to change the pitch easily. The new nut looks more like the traditional erhu nut that is wound and tied with thread, but is
still a sliding block of wood which the strings pass through via a tiny hole. The intonation seems to be a bit better this way also.
I was thinking of adding some sort of decoration at the top but it would need to be removable in order to be able to remove the nut at some point
for repairs or maybe a new improved one!!
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hurdygurdyguy
Oud Lover
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And a closer look...
The visual balance of the instrument just never really looked right and after I saw a similar erhu (pegs through the dowel) at a concert a few months
ago I decided I'd just cut that block off!
Now it looks better! I just have to get it to sound better...aka more practice!!!
Aside: we're about 2 1/2 weeks away from leaving for Israel/Sinai. We had planned to spend sometime in Dahab on the Sinai peninsula (I remember lot's
of great instruments for sale there from 10 years ago), but the recent bombing has us rethinking that...sigh, worldwide cultural exchange would be so
much easier without having to factor in the violence!
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Hi Randy - nice to hear from you again.
I like the changes....the look is good, and I'm glad to hear that the sound is favorably affected too.
Notice there's a bit of padding behind the bridge - I've seen pictures of the instrument done up this way, but I haven't tried it yet - perhaps I
might get around to that soon.
I was checking out the bow, too, and your/its stance, as it appears in the picture. Seems you're using the same hand hold I'm using - but looks
like you're playing on the outside of the strings, yes?
I have to admit that I was doing that a great deal early on, as well. It was practical, and frankly easier, given its more direct relationship to
violin technique. But back in February or so, I finally knuckled down to fitting the hair between the strings (playing from the inside, rather than
the outside, as it were) and just leaving the bow there, basically forcing me to learn to play that way, in earnest, instead of just as an
alternative. From my present vantage point, the "shock therapy" seems to have been worth it. In particular, I have to say that the traditional
bow placement seems to add considerably to the volume of the instrument - I'm not sure why, but it just does, and considerably too. Prior to my
starting to bow the traditional way, the instrument wasn't very loud, and the idea of muffling it (as you're doing) didn't seem to be necessary - now,
I'm not so sure....
Just to keep up my tradition of long posts, I'll add in a bit of my local Chinese instrument news - I've had some further success in interesting
various local musicians to begin to learn some of the Chinese instruments I've acquired - one young lady who is one of my violin students has taken up
the pipa - her mom, who's from Taiwan, and tried unsuccessfully for years to get her daughter to take traditional music seriously, is just
thrillled.... Fortunately, I think I'll be getting my instrument back soon (she's now got it on loan), because relatives will be sending her one of
her own.
I may not get off so easily with the second situation. I discussed the gu-zheng, a chinese zither/table harp, in one or more of my posts above. I
think I referred to it as very beginner friendly, not least because of the pentatonic tuning. Well, my son who's just got back for a summer home
from his first year at university, and who, like most of his generation, lives and breathes Japanese anime movies books and games, has taken a shine
to the instrument (it's known as a 'koto' in Japan). There's apparently a scene where someone is playing one in 'Hero', which he immediately
recognized..... However, now I'm a little concerned that he may want to bring the instrument back with him to college in the fall (his school's about
an 8 hour drive away).... Of course, on the bright side, that might justify me trying to get a new (maybe full size 5 foot long) gu-zheng - silver
linings to every cloud, I guess!
Hope to hear from you all soon, Mark
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