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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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North of Spain, Near Valladolid, at a location called Urueña
(notice the spanish ñ), there is a "Museo de la Música" .
It is a collection of musician Luis Delgado, very famous medievalist and orientalist spanish scholar-musician.
Here is the link
http://www.luisdelgado.net/museo.htm
The museum owns about 1000 instruments fm all over the world though only half are on exhibition.
Some ouds are exposed. I've never been and do not know the age or quality
In the link you can see a small photo with jus the rosette of a syrian oud (a five ends star) which photo am also attaching here.
I believe is a nahat. What do you think ??
Has anybody been there ?? There are other ouds, two or three more, i think.
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Musa
Oud Addict
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Hi Zalzal,
Thanks for pointing out that thread. What I meant by "contemporary" illustrations are those that were made at the time that the ancient ouds where
used and played - particularly early Medieval - 1000's to 1300's. This was the period before they where extensively modified into lutes. Some of those
illustrations where quite interesting. I hope that people can find and post some more! Also, the Spanish museum sounds like it can yield some
promising finds with regards to the ouds themselves.
Salamat we alf mabruk,
Musa
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Django
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Here is my result, so far, from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. This oud is listed only as "19th century", but since they also have an Emmanuel
Venios oud from 1899, and they show this separately, the best guess is that this is from much earlier in the 19th century. I'll try to get more
information from the curatorial staff tomorrow. This oud is not on display, and I suspect there are others gathering dust as well. (from Stefan
Andalus, who has now become Django).
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/lbayne/oldoud.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/lbayne/oldoud.jpg
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Django
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And here is the museum/s 1899 Venios. Nice looking oud, yes?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v413/lbayne/Veniosoud.jpg
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Django
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As I proceed with these museum investigations, I find myself saddened by the silence of these instruments. It is like seeing animals in a zoo.
Perhaps the zoo is the only way to keep the species from extinction, but a neurotic animal pacing around a cement cage is very sad. So is a
magnificent musical instrument in a glass case, not being played.
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Jameel
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Steven,
Very interesting. Thanks. I'm awaiting more info on that oud from Boston. Keep us posted.
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Jonathan
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It's not the glass cases that I worry about. I worry about the instruments sitting in some storage room in the museum's basement, rotting.
At least the animals in a zoo get fed and treated when sick.
While we treasure these instruments, the sad reality is that a lot of museums (even major ones) store items under less than ideal conditions,
including instruments. They simply lack the funds needed. I would rather see the instruments in the hands of a caring musician any day.
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Django
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I've now made contact with the Harvard ethnomusicology deparment. The Head of the department is really interested in this quest, and has put out
feelers to a number of people who should know about Middle East collections. I'm awaiting an answer to my query to the Boston Museum. I agree with
you, Jonathan. The only musical instruments I'm happy to see in a glass case are those that are absolutely unplayable but still beautiful to look at.
A Strad, or an Amati, or a Nahhat or Manol in playable condition in a glass case...no way, brother.
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Django
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The Boston Museum's 19th century oud is 77.7cm long, 31.3cm at its widest, and 15.9cm at its deepest - a rather small instrument. The Museum has a
european lute going back to 1699, and a guitar dated at 1623. Oh, for an oud that old...!
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Musa
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Hi Django,
If your looking for a really old oud, it would also be good to put out feelers for really old lutes (early Medieval), which are basically ouds. With
regard to the glass enclosed specimens, it might be possible that the museums would let an expert oudi, accompanied by an expert oud luthier, try them
out, once credentials have been sufficiently established and demonstrated. This would be even more attractive to the museums if someone could produce
a CD or DVD of the results, whereby they would benefit.
Congrats on what you've found so far, and wishing you the greatest success in finding more.
Salamat,
Musa
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
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The Boston Museum had until last week an exhibit called "Sounds of the Silk Road: Musical Instruments of Asia." I didn't get to see it but I have the
book by the same title published in conjunction with the exhibit. It includes nice color photos of the instruments that were on display (including the
1899 Manol) as well as manuscript illuminations of musical scenes. The book gives the dimensions of the Manol oud: length 81.2 cm, width 36 cm, depth
18.9 cm.
The other ninenteenth-century oud owned by the museum looks to me like a Turkish instrument. I have seen a couple of similar old instruments in
Turkey. The shape of its pickguard was common in nineteenth-century lavtas made in Istanbul.
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David Parfitt
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by zalzal
North of Spain, Near Valladolid, at a location called Urueña
(notice the spanish ñ), there is a "Museo de la Música" .
It is a collection of musician Luis Delgado, very famous medievalist and orientalist spanish scholar-musician.
Here is the link
http://www.luisdelgado.net/museo.htm
The museum owns about 1000 instruments fm all over the world though only half are on exhibition.
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Does anyone have the book that accompanies this exhibition? Just wanted to see if it was worth buying.
Thanks
David
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Jonathan
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I wonder if this is the same Manol that Mal Barsamian gave a public performance on at the museum in 2005? I assume that it is. In which case, bravo
to the museum for letting the oud do what it was made to do.
I heard that, for that performance, it was strung with true gut string, as would be appropriate, and that the sound was stunning. (Any chance anybody
out there has a tape of the performance?)
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Jonathan
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Found the link. I am sure it is the same oud. Wish I was there.
http://www.mfa.org/calendar/event.asp?eventkey=19253&date=11-9-...
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handiro
Oud Lover
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what a wounderful thread ! enjoy reading it and especially al Halabi , you write some very interesting things regarding the theory why so few
instruments survived.
I once met Prince Hassan Bin Talal of Jordan and he told me that there is a museum in Tunis which supposedly has the largest collection of ancient
arabian instruments.
Anybody ever been there ?
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al-Halabi
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The museum in Tunis that Prince Hasan mentioned could be the one in the Centre des Musiques Arabes et Mediterraneennes in Sidi Bou Said. The museum
has a collection of traditional instruments, mostly Tunisian (I have not seen it). The museum is housed in what was once the mansion of Rodolphe
d'Erlanger, the author of the six-volume "La musique arabe." There is a website for the museum which gives photos, descriptions, and music samples of
some of their instruments.
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Instruments/Anglais/cmam_c_...
The page for the Tunisian oud is:
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Instruments/Anglais/cmam_j_...
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Musa
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Hi al-Halabi
That Tunisian oud is an interesting example of an oud arbi. Do you agree with the author of the article where he states that it resembles an 11th
century lute?
Salamat,
Musa
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al-Halabi
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Hi Musa,
I like the details this Tunisian oud player gives for the structure and tuning of the Tunisian oud, and also his passion for the oud as an expressive
instrument. But some of his historical comments are not altogether accurate or clear. My impression is that he is comparing the Tunisian oud to an
11th-century European lute rather than to 11th-century ouds in the region. Based on European medieval pictorial illustrations there is certainly a
similarity. He then mentions the 15th-century playing technique on the Western lute as being different, probably referring to the adoption of finger
picking to replace the plectrum. Another difference he points out is the existence of frets on the European lute, although he makes no mention of the
fretted Tunisian lute that has been around until recently, or the fact that ouds in the 15th-century Middle East were also fretted. A third difference
he notes between the two types of lute is the number of courses, but here he suddenly jumps to the 17th century and says that the European lute had 13
courses (the lutes at the time actually came with different numbers of courses, depending on the style and size of the instrument). He is all over the
place with these comparisons, but his general point that the European lute developed along a different path in structure and techinque is correct.
Did you notice the odd tuning of the Tunisian lute (C3 G2 D3 D2)? The strings are not in sequence in terms of pitch. One can see why it's a tough
instrument to master.
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kasos
Oud Junkie
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Thanks and congrats to everyone for their posts, this continues to be a wonderful, very informative thread.
Al-Halabi, your point about the unusual tuning of the oud in question seems very well taken. I note that similar tunings are used for the older
style of lyras, the bowed instrument of the Greek Isles (very similar to the classical Ottoman kemence). In the case of the traditional lyras, the
purpose of such tunings appears to have been to facilitate the player's use of drones. See http://research.umbc.edu/eol/3/magrini/lyra.htm for an interesting, scholarly article on the subject. According to this article, playing style
on the lyra changed considerably in the late 19th and early 20th century when professionalized luthiers tried to make the instrument more similar to
the violin, with its regular pattern of fifths.
Perhaps, in the case of these Tunisian ouds, we are looking at a similar phenomenon, whereby this specialized tuning of the oud would be reflected in
a different sort of playing style (and playing esthetic) which favored the use of certain types of drones.
Regards, Mark
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al-Halabi
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Mark, thanks for the reference to the lyra and its tuning. The unusual tuning of the Tunisian oud (and the Algerian oud, which is similar) is
intriguing. There is probably a reason connected with peculiarities of the local North African music traditions that would explain why these ouds vary
from the tuning in straight fourths typical of Middle Eastern ouds. Descriptions of the oud from al-Kindi's in the 9th century onward all confirm that
the tuning in fourths was standard for the last thousand years. The comments of the Tunisian oud player about the technique associated with this
Tunisian oud are a bit vague, but he seems to be saying that it had a rhythmic role, not just a melodic one. It is really the third course D3, the
highest one, that seems out of place; the other three courses are tuned in fourths like the three higher courses on the standard oud (D G C). With the
longer neck and the common Tunisian oud technique of playing high up the neck these three courses provide two full octaves for melodic lines. It looks
like the odd placement of the third course D3 right next to D2 is intended to allow easy alternation of a low note and its octave, possibly for
rhythmic or percussive effect. This is my own speculation. I will try to find out, although it's clearly an academic exercise now that this type of
oud has been largely displaced by the Middle Eastern oud.
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al-Halabi
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Last week I mentioned the 19th-century Egyptian oud I saw in the museum in Brussels. I was not allowed to photograph it, but I have two diagrams of
the same 7-course oud with a straight pegbox that was common in Egypt in the 18th century and much of the nineteenth. This diagram was made by the
French scholar Villoteau around 1800, as part of a scientific survey of Egyptian instruments sponsored by Napoleon's occupation of Egypt.
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Any connexion with the anonymous egyptian oud available at the Musée de la Musique at Paris ?? First i Thought 1779 was the age but it is in fact the
registration number of the instrument.
http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/masc/?INSTANCE=CITEMUSIQUE&U...
By the way they own a George Nahat dated 1931.
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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Well yoy have to make work the link to the Musee de la Musique to view the egyptian ud. Click Collections du Musee, then phototheque and then search
for ud.
Nevertheless you can admire the Nahat here
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al-Halabi
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The "Egyptian" oud (the description at the bottom says that it is actually of uncertain provenance - "lieu de creation incertain") looks quite old
(the date of acquisition by the museum is given as 190912, presumably September 1912). But it is a standard six-course oud with a curvy pegbox, and so
is different from the old Egyptian oud I was referring to. I don't remember seeing it on display when I visited the museum, but I saw the Nahat, which
had been restored shortly before that by a luthier in Paris.
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al-Halabi
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Here is another diagram of a 19th-century Egyptian oud, this one made by Edward Lane and published in 1836. Again, note the seven double courses and
straight pegbox.
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