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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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big thread on pickups
I've gone over the last year and a half of posts on the oud forum about electronic pickups and preamps, and was wondering in 2007
what people who perform regularly with pickups/preamps are finding to be consistently reliable, good-sounding, and
feedback-immune systems. For my current gigs I'm using a microphone (Beyerdynamic M88) with no problems, but I have some upcoming
ones where a mic just won't do. For one oud, i will need an external pickup system; for the other, plan on doing a permanent
internally-mounted system.
The idea of this post is that the first message can be updated to reflect current US prices and availability, while in replies people can report on
their experiences with various products (pro and con). It's best if you can post sound clips of pickup/preamp combinations.
A summary of past posts:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10556
Audio samples and discussion of the Pickup the World pickup and preamp
http://mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2828
The main (multilingual) thread about K&K and Barcus Berry pickups
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4536
Where the Fishman Pro-EQ is recommended by MultiKulti
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4519
gives a summary of soundboard pickups
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4149
includes discussion of various preamp choices
Here are the major pickups available on the market now:
Pick Up the World oud pickup use piezoeletric film rather than piezo transducers. They can be externally or internally mounted with double-sided
tape, putty, or superglue. The same company makes a preamp that is optimized for this kind of pickup called the PUTW Line Driver. The pickup is $125, the preamp $125. [users: eliot]
Schertler Dyn-E and Dyn-G Electrodynamic Contact Transducers use a different technology than piezos and sound more like a microphone than a piezo;
they also have hotter output and don't necessarily need a preamp. They're externally mounted with putty, and expensive - $370 [users: al-Halabi]
Shadow Electronics SH 700 NFX external mount bridge pickup system built especially for oud - $210
AKG C411 stick-on condenser microphone - (be careful: the L-version requires expensive AKG accessories to run; the PP-version requires a phantom
power mic preamp in order to receive its power). This fastens like a pickup, but is more like a mic, in that you run it into a mic preamp and not a
piezo preamp. - $160 (very hard to find) [users: teslim]
KK Sound Twin Classic
twin-spot dual piezo element pickup system for acoustic instruments (internal or external) - $64 [users: billinpitt]
KK Sound Pure Classic
quad-spot dual piezo element pickup system (internal or external) - $154 [users: teslim]
Viken Najarian's wooden transducer, a single element external piezo system. $75 (price as of 2004) [users: Brian Prunka]
Schatten Dualie Acoustic Soundboard Pickup dual-element piezo with 2 attached piezos. They claim lower feedback, but the piezos aren't adjustable
like on the KK system. Internal or external - $55
Fishman SBT-E classical guitar pickup, a single-element piezo design. (This is identical to the SBT-C, but has a 1/4" input jack). They recommend
using it in combination with a crown internal mic and mixing it with their Pocket Blender mic/di 2-channel preamp/mixer. - $79 [users: ChrisOud]
Barcus Berry 1457XL "Outsider" Piezo Transducer, a bar-style external mount pickup - $50
Here are the major preamps available on the market now:
LR Baggs Para-Acoustic DI - has phantom power input and a usable eq - $159 [users: Monty88]
LR Baggs Venue DI - has extensive EQ and routing options (but no phantom power, and is a bit noisier than the Para-Acoustic DI) - $299
Fishman Pro-EQ II has limited eq, and uses AC or a 9V battery for power - $129
Fishman Pro-EQ Platinum - has phantom power input and a usable eq. - $169
Boss AD-3 Acoustic Instrument Processor uses digital effects to model "acoustic ambience," and has phantom power input and a basic eq - $154
Tech 21 Sans Amp Para Driver DI has phantom power, limited eq, and distortion/drive - $209
Radial Tonebone PZ-Pre. The most "advanced" DI pedal on the planet, perhaps - can input 2 separate DI channels, with separate, optimized inputs
for piezo pickups (the kind we use on ouds). $299
I need 2 systems, myself:
1) an internally-mounted system that will be used with effects (i.e., non-traditional or contemporary oud sound)
2) an externally-mounted system for my Yucel and Ramazan ouds that needs to sound as natural as possible
What works? What doesn't? For the internally mounted need, is there any under-bridge system that works with oud? Has anyone tried the internal pickup
and mic combination?
Thanks, hoping this will be a lively and informative thread.
update 01.29.2007:
had an email exchange with teslim, who indicated that he has tried every model of pickup I listed above (except the shadow - still no known users for
this pickup), and feels that the AKG C411 (new addition to the list) and K&K 4-spot pickups are about the best. The Schertler required a lot of EQ
to sound good, and still was feedback-prone when the sound level passed a moderate volume level. I've searched around - the C411 is available more
readily in Europe than in the US.
update 04.09.2010:
New pickup and several new preamps added to the chart above!
Audio samples and review of the Pick Up the World pickup and preamp posted on this thread...
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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I'll start it off with what I've tried in the past:
1) I first used a Barcus-Berry bar-pickup system. It sounded horrible, and was feedback prone (this was back in 1993-1994; things may be better
now).
2) I used to use Viken's pickup by itself and with a couple of preamp systems. It worked ok, but I found there to be an unpleasant edge to notes
played on the nylon strings, and note attacks often created strange audible sounds that I didn't really like. It worked best through the LR Baggs
paraacoustic DI, but even through that system was very susceptible to ground hum noise.
3) I was using a LR Baggs button pickup last year, which burnt out after only 3 months of use. It sounded slightly better than Vikens, but had the
same problem with note attacks. Build quality was very poor on this. When it worked, it worked best with the Sans Amp acoustic driver pedal, or
straight into my Marshall acoustic guitar amp (and my friends' Fishman acoustic amp), but still was not perfect.
Thus, I can comfortably say I am not satisfied with the pickup end of ceramic single-piezo element systems.
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billinpitt
Oud Lover
Posts: 16
Registered: 11-16-2006
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K and K dual classic is pretty good. I was impressed. I cannot comment on how durable it is as I just got it. You can order directly from their
website and its a bit cheaper than the stores I think.
I have used the Baggs and Sansamp with guitars with success but not with oud yet.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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I've been using Viken's pickup, but internally mounted, which gets a far superior sound. I got good results with a SWR acoustic amp, but never
bothered with a preamp. Mostly I use a mic these days, with sometimes a little pickup mixed in.
I haven't tried the other pickups, though, so I can't really compare. I use a Baggs on my classical guitar and it sounds very good, though I get a
somewhat "click-y" attack through the pickup.
I've also used an AKG C411 mini condenser mic that mounts on the soundboard; it sounds quite good, but is certainly not feedback proof.
I've been able to play in pretty loud situations with my cheapo MXL991 condenser. It has impressive off-axis rejection and sounds great for oud.
I think Mav uses a K&K and likes it a lot . . .
Al Gardner was into the Najarian . . .
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
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I recently got a Schertler contact transducer (manufactured in Switzerland). It's pricey, but sounds great.
http://www.schertlerusa.com/dyn.htm
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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al-Halabi, that looks like an interesting option. I found a comparison of it with other piezo pickups here..., though the demo was on an acoustic guitar and not an oud. But it obviously sounds more like a mic than a piezo.
A few questions for you:
have you used piezo pickups before, and if so, how does the Schertler compare in sound?
Which one did you get? (dyn-G/ dyn-E/ dyn-B)?
Do you use a preamp with it?
thanks!
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
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Eliot, I got the dyn-E (the various models for stringed instruments all have the same transducer, but differ in the way they attach to the
instrument). I connect it directly without a preamp and it works nicely. The sound of the Schertler is clearer and more natural than that of the piezo
pickups I had used in the past. It sits on a a thin ring of putty rather than directly on the face, and that, in addition to the different
electronics, causes it to respond more sensitively to the vibrations of the instrument. I hesitate, though, to make categorical statements about its
superiority because many other variables can affect the quality of the sound we get - the location of the pickup on the instrument, the sound system,
the venue, our own aesthetic preferences, etc. I think it's worth exploring and comparing with other options.
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Monty88
Oud Junkie
Posts: 135
Registered: 8-15-2004
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Hi guys,
I've got a barcus berry here, and my preamp is an L.R baggs. It's great when I play saz, with the piezo under the bridge, a shadow one. Anyone find
the best place to place the barcus berry? I haven't had the best luck yet, so I'm going to upgrade to the K&K stuff, which I've heard good words
about. Eliot?
Regards,
Paddy
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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I never liked the barcus berry that I had on oud (I don't know if it's the same as you have, though), tried it inside and out, all over the place -
major feedback, and poor tone. It's designed for metal string instruments like the saz has, so I'm not surprised you like it on that (I've also seen a
pair of them used on Persian santour - sounded great).
I'm hearing a few reports that the K&K twin/dual system is better than a single system, since you can put one on the treble side and one on the
bass side, getting a better frequency response. From a technical standpoint it should reduce feedback a little bit, as well. The cost isn't high ($64
or less online), and you can use the same preamp with it. The sound recordings I heard of it used on acoustic guitar, though, and the 2 times I've
seen oud players use it in concert, it still had a little bit of that bite that piezo systems always have. This could be useful (if you have to play
against a lot of percussionists, for example), but isn't as "natural" sounding as a mic.
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Monty88
Oud Junkie
Posts: 135
Registered: 8-15-2004
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No I've never used it on my saz, I was referring to the preamp. My main saz, I bought at Tekinler muzik in Tunel, that has a shadow piezo element
under the bridge, not a transducer. You'd know eliot, in turkey these days sazes have fishmans and what not on them..........
But, this shadow piezo in one of my sazes sounds really good through the L.R baggs para DI. I was gracing the baggs, not the barcus berry there.
A friend has a greek santouri and is looking for means of pickups for it, he's got my barcus berry at the moment, you suggest two of them?
Interesting.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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I've seen some of the Persians in LA using twin barcus berry's on their santours before. Also, I think that's what Ishmail (a professional Assyrian
kanun player from California) uses on kanun, with good results.
It's possible that the K&K twin or quad might do even better for santour? I would definitely consider at least a twin pickup system, however,
since the floating bridges on the soundboard contribute to a complex resonance system that can't be accurately captured with one mic or one pickup.
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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 849
Registered: 5-9-2004
Location: new jersey/ Israel
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Mood: ouds up
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hey all
would this work for for a electric oud K&K Sound FanTaStick Classic Nylon Guitar Pickup NEW! i really need to know it sounds good but it says
for 6 strings and ovasaly i need it for 11 or 12 not sure yet i am not sur ehow these work so can some tell me iof this is good and how i would use
it
thx sammy
we are lost camels in the desert and wanna find our way to water and the water is in aden
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oudplayer
hey all
would this work for for a electric oud K&K Sound FanTaStick Classic Nylon Guitar Pickup NEW! i really need to know it sounds good but it says
for 6 strings and ovasaly i need it for 11 or 12 not sure yet i am not sur ehow these work so can some tell me iof this is good and how i would use
it
thx sammy |
This would definitely not work. The pickup mechanism depends upon a unique string attached to each nut on a special bridge that would replace your
instruments' bridge. There are 6 nuts, for 6 strings.
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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 849
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Location: new jersey/ Israel
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Mood: ouds up
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hey eliot
so can u tell me what i can use for what i am trying to build. a electric 11 string oud and i want a undersaddle if posable . under $100
thx sammy
we are lost camels in the desert and wanna find our way to water and the water is in aden
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oudplayer
hey eliot
so can u tell me what i can use for what i am trying to build. a electric 11 string oud and i want a undersaddle if posable . under $100
thx sammy |
I don't know - the main problem I know with undersaddle pickups is that many of them are based on the length of a guitar bridge, which is different
than the length of an oud bridge. In concept, an undersaddle needle should work better than piezo element systems, but there's not enough information
shared amongst oud builders about which models work best.
Someone's gonna have to plunk down some money and try a bunch of them out... or convince a manufacturer to make an oud-specific one...
Note: top post edited to include information from user teslim.
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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 849
Registered: 5-9-2004
Location: new jersey/ Israel
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hey all
SO i just purchesed a undersaddle pick up for my electric oud i got a fishman AG -094 i think thast the numbers the guy told me it would work for what
i wanted to do it make for nylon 12 string guitar so it better work.
I will install ina few weeks and tell you hoqw it sounds it can be that bad can it .
thx sammy
we are lost camels in the desert and wanna find our way to water and the water is in aden
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Let us know how it goes! If you can make sound samples, even better!
Good luck with the experiments... I might be doing some experimenting myself this spring and summer...
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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 849
Registered: 5-9-2004
Location: new jersey/ Israel
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Mood: ouds up
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hey eliot
When i install it i will tell u how it is and all plus i will make a sound clip
thx sammy
and u tell me what u use and all
we are lost camels in the desert and wanna find our way to water and the water is in aden
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
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POTW oud pickup
Hi everyone. Has anyone tried the oud pickup by PickUpThe World? here is the link-
http://www.pick-uptheworld.com
go to 'oud' pickup. thanks.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MatthewW
Hi everyone. Has anyone tried the oud pickup by PickUpThe World? here is the link-
http://www.pick-uptheworld.com
go to 'oud' pickup. thanks. |
It looks like either a bridge-pin pickup or a thin piezoelectric film pickup. Never tried it though and I've never seen it mentioned on the board
here.
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jamloun
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-5-2007
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi there,
excellent thread with very valuable information! 
Two questions:
1. Has anyone used an "Audio Technica ATM 350" microphone set-up with a Oud ??? Audio Technica ATM 350 mic
How does it compare to the AKG C 411 L solution and do you know whether feedback is going to be a real problem with either of these mics?
(the Oud will be played in a noisy environment, the ATM 350 is not specifically made for acoustic instruments like guitar or Oud, rather for violin,
brass, reeds, etc.) but is supposed to have frequency specs and a sound quality that make it goog for all-around use, If I end up buying one the idea
is to use it both for my Oud and for some of my percussion instruments, a sort of two-in-one solution (given the price I will not be able to afford
two mics, I was originallt thinking of getting the C419 for percussions: Udu/Cajon/etc.)
2. Eliot, given that you have launched this thread asking about an internal and external solution, I would have liked to know what you ended up using
for the external solution? the K&K ? (By the way, the C411 (+B29) is rather easy to find here in France)
a nice sunday to everyone!
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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I do not know that particular Audio Technica mic. Other mics of theirs are hit-and-miss in terms of quality. Some mics, such as their stereo electret
condensors, I feel are considerably overpriced in comparison to their sound quality, while others like their 4000 series large diaphragm condensors
are well made, distinctive, and a good value.
$249 seems a bit steep for that mic. If you're going to spend that much, I'd spend a little more and definitely go for a DPA 4060 or 4061 which is
unquestionably a studio-quality mic that works well for many applications on stage. But, I could be wrong - I haven't used this exact particular mic,
just others from the ATM series
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jamloun
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-5-2007
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Mood: No Mood
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Thanx Eliot for the helpful info!
1. Has anyone tried the C411 + B29 solution? I'm concerned about feedback...
2. I checked out DPA's website, and they offer the "IMK4061" mic that sticks to the soundboard:
Quote:
" Especially for live applications the IMK4061 also comes in as a useful alternative. It can be fixed directly on the top deck with the supplied
Universal Surface Mounts. Choose placement according to the desired timbre.
Anyone actually used this with a Oud? (Maybe a worthwhile addition to the main list of micing options)
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ChrisOud
Oud Lover
Posts: 13
Registered: 3-27-2006
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I use the fishman SBT-C through an AER amp and it sounds great. Pick-up placement - Go down 5cm in line with the bridge and forward 4cm. (directions
are for oud in playing position
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OudandTabla
Oud Maniac
Posts: 81
Registered: 2-21-2008
Location: Eugene, OR
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Mood: Oud-a-licious
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I used a Bottle Cap transducer for about 3 years, finally broke down and installed an LR Baggs 'iBeam' under-bridge pickup last spring- the one
intended for nylon string guitars. I run it through a Baggs preamp, and the sound is phenomenal. We almost always play through some sort of system
ending with 12" powered Mackie speakers, and I coudln't believe the richness of the sound when I switched to the Baggs pickup. They also have an
active version, but with the preamp that is unnecessary. I would say to place it as close to the center of the underside of your bridge as
possible.
There is also plenty of headroom with gain.
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