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HELP!

Luttgutt - 9-2-2009 at 12:09 AM

Hi all!

All oud lovers nightmair: I just missed my favorite oud on the flour. And got a 35 cm crack on the first rib :shrug:

Please help me, luthiers!!

What can be done?
There is a guy here in Oslo that hopefully can do something. But he is not exactly a luthier. So I am hoping to get ideas so that I can help him find out what to do.

All help is welcome and highly appreciated.

ALAMI - 9-2-2009 at 12:37 AM

Sorry for your oud, I know this horrible feeling.
A crack in a rib is usually an easy fix, specially if the oud does not have a rose.
But you say it is the first rib, it means it is the rib to which braces are glued, I suggest that you urgently loosen the strings to avoid any further stress or force.
I've seen ribs fixed from the inside and a paper glued under the crack and if the crack is open it can be filled with a mixture of glue and wood dust, but let's wait for our friends luthiers to give an expert advice.

Sazi - 9-2-2009 at 12:58 AM

I bet your heart skipped a beat there! If you could post a photo of the damage it would probably be helpful as far as determining the best course of action.
I wish you luck.

fernandraynaud - 9-2-2009 at 02:09 AM

Luttgutt, hang in there! It's horrible but you have the best people here to help you, and though all I can do is send good thoughts your way, and confirm the obvious that ALAMI and Sazi said, (de-tension and post photos), at least this is not your only oud, you can still play, and you will even be able to ship your baby if needed into the tender arms of a surgeon of love! Surgeons arise!

Luttgutt - 9-2-2009 at 04:35 AM

Thanks a lot guys for your support!

Yes, my heart broke as well

Yes, I have 2 other topp "consert quality" ouds. So I can still do my conserts. So it is not the end of the wold.. just my heart!

Unfortunatly, I have no camera (that is why I never posted pictures of my ouds. Well one bad quality mobile picture, that I never got any responce to on the forum). I'll try to borrow one.

ALAMI, the oud has no rose : ) so the chances are better?
And I did release the strings at once (thank you for your advise).
Yes the first top rib. The crack starts exctly between the first and second rib, then goes 3mm into the first rib. At one place, there are two crackes that are 2mm apart. And that part is a litle "out" and I could not push it back in place.

Thanks again!!
I'll try to post pictures soon. And tolk to the "half luthier" in Oslo. And hope in the best.

Please, give me more advise...

Christian1095 - 9-2-2009 at 08:06 AM

Brother, I don't have any advice for you... but I certainly sympathize with your pain... that completely and totally sucks.....

I know everytime I bang my oud up against something I just cringe....

katakofka - 9-2-2009 at 08:26 AM

getting hidden glue and fixing it yourself doesn't work?

Dr. Oud - 9-2-2009 at 08:28 AM

This is a simple repair, really. All you need is a litle glue (any decent glue meant for wood bonding) and some tape - masking or anything actually. Press at the ends of the crack to open it slightly and rub some glue into the crack. Now squeeze the crack together and wipe away the excess glue with a damp cloth. Then tape the crack closed and let it cure for 2 days. There might be some work to restore the finish, depending on the fit of the crack edges, but it should be stable enough to play.

Luttgutt - 9-2-2009 at 08:41 AM

Thanks a lot Dr. Oud. Now I am more releafed.
Still one problem:
The crack starts exctly between the first and second rib, then goes 3mm into the first rib. At one place, there are two crackes that are 2mm apart. And that part is a litle "out" and I could not push it back in place.
How can I push it back in place? It looks to me like I'll have to pull the ribs apart to be able to push it in!?

Christian brother, thanks a lot for your moral support.
Katakofka: I don't know if I have the heart to try it myself. Need some incouragment maybe : )

Thanks again Dr. and all of you guys.

fernandraynaud - 9-2-2009 at 07:59 PM

Pictures, please! I don't know, but maybe you can undo the glue on a rib enough to allow you to push the piece back in? Someone much more qualified can help you. But allow me one thing, coming from Harpsichord where instruments are often many many decades, and sometimes several centuries, old. Whatever you do, do not use any glue other than "hide glue", animal skin glue. Do not use that yellowish aliphatic resin wood glue. A lot of younger luthiers use that crap because they haven't dealt with decades, let alone centuries. Animal hide glue is normally solid and heated up to melt it, but now you can get liquid hide glue, e.g. Titebond Liquid Hide Wood Glue, that doesn't have to be heated up. The reason we only use hide glue on instruments is because 1) it can be undone with heat and a little moisture, so if you mess up the repair you can completely do it over 2) hide glue bonds to itself, modern wood glues do not once they dry; if you want to undo and redo a repair, good luck, you will have to scrape off all the old glue 3) hide glue pulls the wood pieces together as it sets 4) hide glue dries very beautiful with a transparent amber look. The fact that hide glue does not "creep" under strain is probably irrelevant here. So I wouldn't worry too much, if you use the right glue, do the repair as best you know how, secure in the knowledge that it can be undone and done again. Violins that are several centuries old are also routinely unglued and repaired.

Luttgutt - 9-3-2009 at 02:02 AM

Thanks a lot, fernandraynaud!

So it is Titebond Liquid Hide Wood Glue I should use, right?
I suppose I should then phone the maker and ask him what glue he used in order to losen the rib!?

Thanks again guys for your support and help.. it is GRATE help.

p.s. I'll try to borrowo a cameri tomorrow.

Geko

Dr. Oud - 9-3-2009 at 08:39 AM

The "out" rib area is due to the residual stress in the wood from bending the rib into shape. The crack relieves the stress and the rib is retuning to it's natural shape. It is very difficult to push it back under anycircumstances, but you could apply some heat (heat gun or hair dryer) and hold it down until it cools. Liquid hide glue does not have the strength or heat resistance comparable to cooked hide glue. If you can't manage the cooked glue, aliphatic glue is a better choice.

Luttgutt - 9-3-2009 at 01:17 PM

Thanks again Dr.Oud.

I'll check on the cooked glue. If it is diffecult for me to handel, I'll get help somewhere!

Thanks to you guys, I am starting to understand more about the instrument I love, and have played for 30 years

fernandraynaud - 9-3-2009 at 03:13 PM

Heating hide glue is very simple, you use a little pot in a pot of hot water. 65 deg Celsius. A pound of hide glue costs about 10-15 Euros. A good approach:

http://www.spurlocktools.com/id57.htm

I have never measured the strength of the liquid hide glue, I've used it OK on harpsichord and clavichord soundboard cracks, so if DrOud has tested it, that's very valuable information. No question the heated stuff is best. But, Richard, I cannot understand using aliphatic resin glue unless you are sure you will never have to undo and repair the bond. You pointed out yourself that removing a rosette was only easy if they used hide glue to attach it. I have seen whole harpsichords sold as scrap ONLY because aliphatic resin glue had been used, and thus the instrument was unrepairable, a good example is here:

http://www.claviersbaroques.com/LPAlbardaFlemishSingle.htm

Seriously, this is not to question your expertise, on the contrary I'd like to know how YOU repair instruments glued with carpenter's glue? have you found a way to undo and re-glue the bonds?

jdowning - 9-3-2009 at 04:12 PM

Richard is correct - Liquid Hide Glue is not to be recommended for instrument work and has the further disadvantage in my experience of having a limited shelf life - it deteriorates and goes rancid after about a year or two. Hide glue comes in various strengths - measured commercially as Bloom strength. The stronger glues have a shorter open time, useful for uncomplicated carpentry assemblies. I use a 'weaker' 'Pearl' hide glue for instrument work. Use hot hide glue where a joint may have to be opened for repair in future - such as neck joints, pegbox to neck joints etc. For random, 'once off' repairs of cracks, modern synthetic glues can have their place and may have many advantages over hot hide glue - dependant upon the circumstances.

fernandraynaud - 9-3-2009 at 09:30 PM

OK, here we go. "Modern synthetic glues can have their place and may have many advantages over hot hide glue ". But, like what? The convenience of a squeeze bottle? The alleged greater resistance to moisture? The aliphatic glues come in different types, the standard ones are NOT recommended where there is heat and moisture, either, and the ones that can be used on outdoor furniture are not recommended for instruments. The problem is that really objective data is hard to come by, for some reason. Apparently under stress, heat and moisture, hide glue is still the winner. I have to find the reference, some study at Stanford.

Solid hide glue requires a glue-pot, and smells a bit. It sets quickly and you have to work faster than with aliphatics, so the convenience of aliphatics is undeniable. But is it worth it?

I don't objectively know what the limitations of different glues are. All too often we hear only folklore. A little more detailed observations would be great. For hide glue, we agree, it's unquestionably better to stick

to the hot melt kind. As to aliphatic yellow glue vs. hide glue, technically most say it's a matter of preference. But I sure prefer something I can reverse, if there's no disadvantage.

There are vocal guitarmakers who say that hide glue makes for a noticeably better sounding instrument because of its brittleness and sound-conducting, like shellac is the only finish to use on soundboards. In fact it's a BIG fad, people are asking for instruments 100% bonded with hide glue. For instance look at the post near the bottom of the page by Montuoro Guitars.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/85249

Frankly, when I came here, I was surprised to find many Western oud makers using aliphatic resin glue. The guys in the Middle East thankfully stick to tradition. What is the problem with only using hide glue? Anyone?

To repair this crack, let's say there's some trial and error involved, why on earth would Luttgutt use a "modern" glue that cannot easily be undone and rebonded, if hide glue is as strong as aliphatic, dries clear and glossy, draws the pieces together, doesn't creep, etc etc? Also if he has to heat the rib to re-form it, then let it cool, wouldn't hide glue work well in that scenario? I like this quote: "Work quickly but smoothly, and don't worry, if something goes wrong and you don't get done in time, take it apart, clean off the glue, and try again."

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2009 at 05:17 AM

I had been running some tests, and what I suggest, Luttgutt, is that you take your time and do a lot of searching and reading before committing to a method, if you're going to do this yourself. Your oud is not going to run away. Then look for some solid and some (unexpired) liquid hide glue and some yellow aliphatic glue, and try some simple tests on wood scraps. You may come to your own conclusions. It seems most everyone here agrees that if you can manage the glue-pot, solid hide glue is the best. Meanwhile maybe we'll get some more information from people who have had specific adventures with the various glues.

jdowning - 9-4-2009 at 05:24 AM

Well, like repairing a hairline crack in an oud rib for example - just wick in a drop of 'superglue' designed for this kind of repair application (check out the luthier supply houses). A random crack in a rib should not likely to be something that ever needs to be redone - unlike say, a sound board to bowl joint.

I don't fully understand why well respected and successful luthiers use aliphatic glues for instrument assembly work in preference to hot hide glue either - but clearly it works for them and their many customers and presumably has some advantage over hot hide glue where production time is of the essence.
I have used hot hide glue for instrument construction for over 30 years so can confirm its well known advantages from practical experience.

I rarely use yellow carpenter's glue even for general wood working applications as it can be problematic in showing through clear finishes if not completely removed from wood surfaces.

One great advantage of using hide glue for instrument assembly - particularly for ouds and lutes - is that you don't always have to 'work quickly and smoothly' - indeed it is difficult if not impossible to work quickly enough to successfully complete gluing of rib joints, assembling sound board to bowl or even for sound board panel assembly, before hot hide glue gels and becomes unworkable. No problem. The centuries old technique is to go over the joint - bit by bit - with a heated iron to remelt the glue so that the joint surfaces can then be brought together and held in place until the glue sets.
For those who are curious enough to learn more about how it is done, check out "Old Oud - New Project" on the Oud Project forum.

Dr. Oud - 9-4-2009 at 08:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

... I'd like to know how YOU repair instruments glued with carpenter's glue? have you found a way to undo and re-glue the bonds?

Synthetic glues all have some melt point, so I have used heat - hot iron/ heatgun/heated pallette knife, to to open the joint. Yes, the joint must then be cleaned to re-bond, ok.
As this thread morphs into a glue symposium, let's keep in mind that the topic was a request for how to repair a crack in the ribs of the oud from someone who seems to have little or no woodworking experience. So I'd suggest keeping it simple. OK, so hide glue is superior, no argument, but it is not simple to use. The formula should be proper for music instruments, the mix must be in the correct ratio and the cooking needs to be at the correct temperature. Then there's procurement, the last time I bought hide glue I had to order $20 worth from my supplier. OR, go to any hardwre store and buy a small bottle of yellow wood glue and just squeeze it out. Here's a link to some info for glue application.

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2009 at 02:06 PM

... or maybe squeeze some liquid hide glue from the bottle? I don't think we have truly established yet that liquid hide glue is garbage. Titebond's own data claims it's as strong as their aliphatic, as long as it's not past expiration date. I don't think it's off topic to ponder the glues, precisely because Luttgutt is asking for help, he may as well dive in.

Thanks, Richard, good to know how you undo those bonds.

An old technique for slowing the setting on solid hide glue is adding Urea. That's basically what liquid hide glue is. I have had good results with it on repairs, I like it. If it was my oud with the crack, that's what I'd use. I'm insecure, so I want to know I can redo it, and I'm lazy, so the squeeze bottle is nice.

Gel Cyanoacrylate (superglue) I've tried but it flows and always ends up in the wrong places like eating the finish, I can never be sure when it's going to seize, it's very fragile as gap filler, and cleanup is bad.

As I compare my test plywood newly bonded with liquid hide glue vs. yellow aliphatic, it's very obvious why some guitarmakers are so adamant. The hide glue bonded plywood rings like a piece of fine soundboard, the yellow glue bonded one is muffled, as the guitarmaker was saying, "like a pillow".

The liquid hide is a viscous liquid that flows into and "pulls" cracks, and it gives you all the time in the world. On my plywood it pretty abruptly went crunk-solid after a couple of hours, where the aliphatic stayed so mushy for 3 days the plywood kept warping and I had to reclamp it. I don't even see any advantage where production time matters. Anyway, Luttgutt, you can easily do your own tests, and if ever something tragic happens to a friend (knock on w'oud), you'll be the one helping

Luttgutt - 9-4-2009 at 02:47 PM

Hi again guys!
This has turned out to be a fasinating thread!
I almost forgot is it about my cracked oud : )

Dr. oud, thanks for pointing out the difficulty of working with hot hide glue. I understand that I am not capable of working with it without practicing (a lot).

And your are so right! I have no experience with wood. I have done some repaires on a couple of my cheep ouds (rib cracks, fixed bridge coming out). I tried both superglue and cascol, and the result was OK.

But this is my Favorit oud. And the crack is ugly and difficult (with a piece coming a little out).
But I know 2 guys in Oslo that have experience with wood.
And after all what I am reading here, I feel I am starting to get an idea about what to say to them (different glue types, the warming up to push in, the squeesing on the edges...)

Ferandraynaud, you are right, I am going to take my time. No hurry! I'll lurn about the glues first. try some on some wood peaces (good idea : ) so I know what kind of help I can seek.

jdowning, thanks for you clarifications (and thanks a lot for joing the debate (I have always been facinated of what you write and do : )

I 'll have to read all this a couple of times more, but it is starting to make sence to me

Thanks a million

fernandraynaud - 9-4-2009 at 08:43 PM

Just one detail on the hide glue fad. I didn't realize it had come to this. People are canceling guitars with luthiers upon learning they aren't using hide glue, because "hide glue is natural" and "it sounds better", they'd rather wait 2 months than take delivery of an inferior instrument!

jdowning - 9-5-2009 at 08:03 AM

Well, of course, all glues have different formulations (including hot hide glues) and must be selected, according to the application, and applied with sufficient skill. Superglue is no exception and comes as a viscous gap filling gel (that will not flow into a joint) or a thin liquid of low viscocity that will flow into a joint by capilliary action - used for hairline cracks that do not have to be opened up to get the glue in there.
Note also that liquid hide glue is subject to 'creep' so should not be used for critical joints under stress.

It is amusing to contemplate the prospect of prominent and successful luthiers - who build high quality guitars using modern adhesives - 'laughing all the way to the bank' fulfilling more costly custom orders for those who want instruments made using hide glue. After all, how would the customer be able to make comparisons? Sounds like just another fad.
If a guitar sounds 'muffled like a pillow' then there is likely to be much more than the glue at fault.

jdowning - 9-5-2009 at 10:18 AM

Thanks Luttgutt - Here is an example of a cracked rib repair for information.
I did the same as you with one of my lutes that I made in 1979 and, shortly after, dropped it (unintentionally!) on to a concrete floor. I was amazed to see it bounce like a basketball across the room but not too pleased to find a crack running across and completely through a side rib - from the rib joint to the soundboard. The ribs - less than 1.5 mm thick - are made from highly figured maple, easily fractured due to the 'wavey' grain structure.
Lutes do not have open sound holes so the only solution, in this case, was for me to remove the sound board - not a problem - but sometimes there is no preferred 'quick fix'. After removal of the sound board it was then possible to properly clamp the joint. The glue that I used was (gasp!) high strength epoxy - resulting in a permanent repair that is still secure after 30 years with the lute in daily use under the extreme climate variations that we experience in this part of the world. Like all glues, epoxy comes in a variety of formulations - some that are no good for this type of repair as they never harden fully.
Not that I am suggesting epoxy should be used to fix the crack in your oud - it all depends upon the circumstances, each repair being unique.

[file]11026[/file]

It's done!

Luttgutt - 9-7-2009 at 08:07 AM

Hi guys!
I read your replies several times. I read about the different glues (thanks a lot for the links I got!!). I practiced on wood peaces. And decided to do it myself.

I found out that hot hide glue is too much for me to handle.
And I thought this would only need repairing again in case it falls on the floor again (and in that case, it does not reaaly matter what glue I have : )
And decided to go for aliphatic glue.

First I had to press and push back in place. And it worked (thanks a lot for the tip Dr. oud). Now with rib in place, I thought this would not be needing a try and error! I just have to apply the glue.
So I put the glue on, then pushed from the sides to open a litle and allow the glue to get in.
:bounce:

And voila! It is done : )

And it looks good enough. I can barely see a crack!

So to all of you guys who contributed to this

THANK YOU!!! :bowdown:

I would hva not done it without your help and support!

Now one thing remains:
What can I do to hide the crack best way. And to make it shine again?

fernandraynaud - 9-7-2009 at 09:55 AM

... shine again? put on a little liquid hide glue, it dries glossy

Otherwise, Dr. Oud can help you with how to refinish the bowl.

Luttgutt - 9-7-2009 at 10:41 AM

Do you mean that liquide hide glue works also as polisher?

p.s. Fernandraynaud, thanks for always "beieng there" : )

hama - 9-8-2009 at 05:12 AM

I find Fernandraynaud very helpful and very informative in general, i enjoy reading his posts , thanks Fernandraynaud for your contribution.

Dr. Oud - 9-8-2009 at 03:02 PM

so what's the problem? Is there a big patch of finish missing? or just the crack itself? First you have to identify the finish, because some finishes will not stick to some others. If you want to get into re-finishing, here's a place to start: scroll down to "Items for Luthiers:", then down to "Finish" and read everything. Otherwise, I would suggest using some guitar or furniture polish on it.

Luttgutt - 9-9-2009 at 04:51 AM

Dr. oud, I was very unclear in what I wrote. Sorry about that. (I was just too happy, I guess

Well, the crack is almost invisable and the polish is still there.
But at one place the wood is sticking out. And I am guessing I'll need to sand it (?) And when that is done, I am guessing I'll need to polish it again. right?

What should I use to sand it? and what to use on the polish?

Dr. oud, thank for the link. I am starting to read it (but I guess it is gonna take me a long while : )

One more thing:
It is two days now since the fix. Can I put strings on?
I am planing to start with Daniel Mari low tention. But should I tune it even lower at the begyning? maybe one note lower? for how long?

One last question (I promise : )
Is it wise to put the strings while the tape is still on the Oud?

Still hoping for your help! :bowdown:

Dr. Oud - 9-9-2009 at 10:38 AM

Yes, you can string it, and if the glue is 2 days old, remove the tape. I would not sand down the edge sticking up, but add a little filler to level it out, then finish over it (glue & sawdust or wood filler). Sanding might remove wood and end up with a hole, which is more difficult to repair. The back is not affected by the string tension unless it is cracked through the tail end block. I can't advise what to use to re-finish it since I don't know what it is. Read the information. Any furniture or guitar polish is ok for modern oud finishes (lacquer or varnish). If you test it and it is a French Polish finish (shellac) you can use lemon oil polish to shine it up.

Thanks a millon, Dr.oud!

Luttgutt - 9-9-2009 at 10:49 AM

I'm still reading : )
And I'll follow up on your advise!

I owe you a big one :-)

p.s. I promise pictures as soon as possible.

fernandraynaud - 9-9-2009 at 05:02 PM

Luttgutt, in part I was just kidding you, because hide glue being so glossy takes care of itself in that way, if you had used it

Touching up the finish is a big headache, you start in an area and can't find a good way to stop. Maybe you CAN use a little liquid hide glue to even out and gloss over the repair, it's a lovely glossy amber, I'd have to see how your repair ended up, but you get the idea.

Hama, thanks for the thanks!

Luttgutt - 9-10-2009 at 09:51 AM

So you were not totally kiding, after all, Fernandraynaud : )

I failed to mention that this is a floating bridge! Is this a problem (since it is the first rib that was cracked)?

I'll wait to hear from you before I put the strings on..

Thanks again

fernandraynaud - 9-10-2009 at 12:25 PM

You know, I'm an engineer, and I do my own work, so I approach it based on the properties of the materials, how it has worked for me on other instruments, and so on, and I'm far from being an expert on ouds per se. There are people here who HAVE been working on ouds for a long time and can tell you what works for them. What Dr. Oud is telling you is not to go crazy with sanding, you will just make matters worse, just try to cover it up. What I'm suggesting is that the glossiness of hide glue might be exactly what you need to do that. It's just common sense, that as you try to even out a finish you have big headaches, it never ends short of redoing the whole darned thing. The hide glue, as you will see if you try the liquid stuff, is very glossy and might help you even it out as a sort of sealer/varnish and maybe save you from having to do a lot of refinishing if the rest of the bowl is very glossy too. A photo would be very helpful. The only down side of liquid hide glue here, like all hide glue, is that it's warm-water soluble, so if this is an area where your sweaty hand rests, you will not like it as it may get sticky. Of course the fear of an instrument coming apart in the rain is absurd, most older instruments are entirely held together with hide glue, and nobody even thinks about it, and you don't go SCUBA diving with your oud or your violin.

You can try evening out the crack area with a tiny bit of liquid hide glue, sand any aliphatic glue residue before trying to cover it, maybe use a tiny brush. If you need more opaque "mass" as filler, you can make a paste with glue and sawdust colored to match, and then do the final coat with just glue for the most shine. If you like it, keep going, and if you don't like it, you can always remove it by softening with warm water and try another technique. Of course I was teasing you a bit, because as you see, even the simplest things sometimes DO need to be redone, so maybe that would have been the best glue to use after all. Try to find a bottle of that Titebond Liquid hide glue, it's not very expensive, it's good to have anyway, it's dated and keeps for about a year. All this talk of it being weak seems to be entirely based on speculation, Titebond's own data shows it as being just as strong as their best aliphatics. I can't imagine how the type of bridge would have anything to do with it, or why you couldn't be doing this touch-up with the strings on, but again a photo would be very helpful. I'd hate to imagine you making a hole just to make it flat, or trying to refinish the whole bowl, try it, and if my idea is bad, it's easy to back out. Make sense?