Mehran
Oud Junkie
Posts: 210
Registered: 4-27-2006
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Pegbox-neck disaster
Hey folks,
Right here's the deal. The pegbox (+nut) has separated from the neck  . This
occurred when I was re-stringing my oud, the pegbox just fell off as the strings were being taken off.
However for a while I have noticed the neck-joint was loose, but the joint remained together whilst strung - It seems that the string tension was
holding the joint together in the end and the glue was no longer effective.
Second of all, at the neck-body joint has several visible separations, and the adjacent ribs are slightly separating from the rim of the bowl
(multiple splits on left side). i mentioned a year ago, and seems to have gotten a bit worse, but i hesistated hoping it would setting. This seems to
me a more serious problem.
I live in the UK (Manchester, and also Scotland during term at university) and dont know any luthiers/teachers/oudists; could a local guitar shop
repair this?
As a wind musician i have no experience in fixing string instruments. Unless in all your experiences you believe this can be fixed by myself, i dont
fancy trying.
The oud is made by Jawharet Salmeen from Dubai, and is my first oud. I would like to fix it (i dont like potential instruments lying around not being
played), but unless its going to cost me the price of a new instrument i dont see any economy in doing so.
So my questions:
- Can i fix this myself?
- Is it worth it to get repaired?
- Could these problems be related to the humidity in the UK?
Advice, tips, and warnings are all welcome.
Many thanks
Mehran
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Mehran
Oud Junkie
Posts: 210
Registered: 4-27-2006
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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It's hard to see what's happening at the neck/bowl area. Perhaps some more photos?
On the pegbox it looks like nothing is damaged at all. I would imagine that the oud was made in a dry climate with just enough hide glue, and in the
damp "climate" of the U.K. the glue just softened and finally gave. I remember hearing of an oud that collapsed into a small pile of wooden parts when
taken from the desert to the seashore.
I would just get some hide glue and reglue the joints. I would use hot hide glue unless there's no way you can, in which case you can use liquid hide
glue as long as it's well short of expiry date. Clamp as best you can, let set a day or two and she should be good to go. I'd say it's eminently
fixable, no big deal. The other areas can probably be glued as well, hide glue makes a good filler and tends to pull the parts together. You can use
heat to reposition pieces. But some better photos would help.
Although such joints would likely never come undone, I would not yield to the temptation to use an aliphatic resin glue, so called carpenter's glue,
because it's much better to be able to repair and reglue joints as needed than to have a joint that cannot be undone/redone. Resin glues are strong
but unlike hide glue they creep under tension, and then the joints cannot be redone without completely removing all the old glue (this is considered a
one shot joint). So just stick to what instrument makers have used for centuries if not millenia.
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
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Location: london - uk
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Hi Mehran,
I had exactly the same problem with my oud a while ago - the peg box just fell off without warning. It was easy enough to fix and i'm sure you can do
it yourself.
I used Araldite two component glue (the slow drying one).
Just prepare as usual:
Sand down all bits of left-over glue.
Dry, clean, slightly roughened surfaces.
Use clamp to hold it in palce.
Make sure you place the peg box EXACTLY where it was before breaking off.
Allow a good one and a half days to dry.
You'll be fine.
When mine broke off I thought long and hard what could have happened and in the end put it down to sloppy manufacturing and not enough glue being used
in the first place. I'm quite glad I had to re-glue it as now I know it will hold!
Good luck!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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See? The world wants you to use a modern glue. Like a resin carpenter's glue or even a two part epoxy or the like. Not the old-fashioned smelly
stickum they made out of animal carcasses, the crap that those unwashed primitives on the continent used to glue together fiddles, you know cavemen
like Antonio Stradivari and Nicolo Amati.
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abusin
Oud Junkie
Posts: 442
Registered: 3-23-2006
Location: Manchester England
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Salam Mehran,
Just before you start anything come over and meet us.
we meet every Sunday in Manchester
I'll send you a U2U with directions and contacts
see you soon
Best Regards
Awad
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
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Location: london - uk
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | See? The world wants you to use a modern glue. Like a resin carpenter's glue or even a two part epoxy or the like. Not the old-fashioned smelly
stickum they made out of animal carcasses, the crap that those unwashed primitives on the continent used to glue together fiddles, you know cavemen
like Antonio Stradivari and Nicolo Amati.
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It depends on the instrument.
My oud was cheap and all i wanted was for it to hold, hence I used the strongest glue I could find. I wouldn't recommend it for high quality vintage
instruments, but for a cheapish one it's good to have something to definitely hold it.
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Mehran
Oud Junkie
Posts: 210
Registered: 4-27-2006
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Rights here more images of neck-bowl area, its hard to see exactly what going on. (click images for enlargement)
What it looks like is the joint between the 1st and second rib on each side is separating (not between the first rib and the soundboard).
On the right side the split between the ribs is around 5-6 cm long. You can also see that where the split has begun, a small area where the wood has
disintegrated.
This looks much more dramatic in the picture than it really does.
On the left the split between the 1st-2nd rib is around 5cm long.
***Its interesting to note that the split between the second/third rib on the left side has closed off since last night (when I took the strings off),
probably because the strung tension no longer applies.
Between the neck and the rest of the bowl a small line of separation can be seen - its hard to see what's happening here. Cant get close enough for
the camera to really see whats happening.
Note the joint between the neck and the 1st rib seems to be pretty intact, and that they splits are happening after it.
Say i did want to try and repair it myself, id have a few questions:
- what grit rating of sandpaper? how far do clean it (just the glue, or make it really smooth by taking some wood)
- how would i clamp the joint? is there a special "oud" clamp?
- where is the best glue available?
- any other tools required?
- what would be done to fix the neck-bowl area? (or at least prevent it from getting worse)
------
Salaam Abusin - there are oud players in Manchester? Fortunate for me! But unfortunately im in Glasgow at the moment for university, but will be back
in Manchester in around 4-5 weeks. Ill be keen to meet up when i get back though. Maybe Ill try and survive the 5 week wait till one of you guys could
take a look.
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abusin
Oud Junkie
Posts: 442
Registered: 3-23-2006
Location: Manchester England
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No problems mate, when you have time give me a shout I left you my contacts in your U2U inbox
see you soon,
Best Regards
Awad
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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May you let us know in the time coming about what did you choose and the way you did it?
It's always good to know the way to repare a neck/body joint.
Good luck Mehran!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Hi, Suz,
Am I mistaken or are the cracks at the neck/body joint not causing any structural problems? Is there any movement between the neck and body? It looks
like a fairly typical "production" job, where gobs of varnish and "paint" are used to create the impression of smoothness and fit that were not
achieved by mortal means. If there isn't any movement I would respect the tradition and"inject" hide glue into the crevices. I can't see using any
sandpaper there unless it bleeds out and needs to be taken down. But hide glue sets as a golden amber and should look nice. If the rib can be pushed
deeper in, do so, if not, leave it. As you said, it's your first oud.
Let's be practical. Glues have a whole "second life" issue. Gluing a volkswagen to a gorilla to Houdini's shoes is relatively simple. But what later,
when you need to undo it? And the next day when the trick must be repeated? Glues don't like to meet other glues. They don't mind their own flesh and
blood.
Your separations look clean, to the point where you can probably use the residual glue to help you align the pieces. Check it. If the pieces line up
well, glue and all, you'd be a masochist to start with removing the old glue. Yet if you want to apply products like "Smeagol's All-Purpose
Petrochemical Smear" or "Vulcan's Own Toxy-Poxy" or "Gorilla Rigormortis", you will find removing the previous glue is part of the fun. If you use the
same type you can use the tried and true "more glue" approach, as long as you clamp the pieces too.
Identify the glue the good folks at Jawharet Salmeen used to assemble your instrument. Use a hot needle to see if the residual glue melts nicely. Use
hot water on another tiny spot to confirm. It it's meltable and softens with hot water, 99% chance it's old-fashioned hide glue. The solution is
pretty obvious. I like easy. If you don't see a glue-pot and accessories in your near-future, know that Liquid Hide Glue is just hide glue with some
urea and mystery salts added, that for some reason stays viscous at room temperature until spread out and exposed to air. There is resistance to the
liquid stuff among the cognoscenti, but for no clear reason. The technical data looks the same for liquid vs. traditional hot melt. There are plastic
or plastic-coated clamps that don't hurt the wood, and it's a matter of what you can find in the local shops, but old style C clamps can probably work
fine.
Of course if a coven of luthiers in Manchester will inspect your ruin and poke and prod and prognosticate, and you don't really NEED the oud, you can
put it off ;-)
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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The pegbox to neck joint, at best of times, is relatively weak due to the areas of end grain in the joint surfaces. To judge from the images posted,
the joint problem seems to be due to a failure of the glue - not the surrounding wood surfaces.
Hot hide glue is the traditional glue used for this joint and will be satisfactory if properly prepared and applied. However, a weak hide glue joint
may manifest itself in failure if:
1) the joint is not a perfect fit.
2) the glue is of insufficient 'bloom' strength or poor quality.
3) the glue has been weakened by reheating in the pot too many times (i.e. is not freshly made).
4) the glue has been weakened by over diluting with water in the pot.
5) the glue has been weakened by 'cooking' in the pot above 140F.
6) the glue has been allowed to cool and 'gel' before clamping the joint. ('speed is of the essence' when using hot hide glue - a few seconds at
best).
Using hot hide glue successfully requires some experience! Liquid hide glue falls into category 2) above (despite claims of a few enthusiasts as to
its effectiveness). It is probably stronger than the poorest grades of hot hide glue but inferior to the best hot hide glue (the same applies to
liquid fish glue - but that's another story)
Also incorrectly prepared weak hide glue may be hard but brittle and will fail if subject to impact loads - like accidentally knocking the end of the
peg box against a hard surface or worse, dropping the oud, pegbox down, on the floor!
So, if you have little or no experience in making or repairing instruments using hide glue and your instrument is valuable (probably not in your case
as the pegbox joint glue has failed - an indication of inferior workmanship) and you want hot hide glue to be used for the repair then take it to a
professional luthier to get the job done (although not all professional luthiers use hide glue!).
Otherwise, if the instrument is not of significant value and you are otherwise obliged to repair the pegbox joint quickly and cheaply yourself, take
the advice of littleseb and use Araldite epoxy. Remove the weak hide glue residues and loose wood fragments so that the joint is a good fit - use a
file and take your time!) I have used this brand of epoxy in the past for gluing lute pegboxes and have never had any failures of the pegbox/neck
joint. Bear in mind that the joint surfaces must be well fitting and well degreased (I used 'Genklene' in the past - a solvent used for removing
grease spots from clothing). Also, not all brands of epoxy are equal - 'Araldite' two part, slow cure is OK in my experience.
Good luck!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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I certainly defer to the experience of jdowning. I am just an engineer who does small repairs for no better a reason than saving money. JDowning is to
me as a builder of cathedrals is to a marmot in its wretched burrow. What I am proposing is of a different type entirely. So much so that I continue
to offer it for your consideration.
You noted that your pegbox stayed on in spite of the glue failing; apparently the mechanics are such. That's helpful.
Of course both fixes that jdowning is suggesting are of a vastly superior long term variety, namely 1) hiring a professional luthier, and 2)
performing an epoxy fix following a careful removal of old glue, degreasing and optimal fitting of the parts.
A luthier's efforts might easily triple the value of the oud. That's the positive way of putting it. When the local violin shop quoted me $300 for new
pegs, I thought they meant including fancy planetary pegs. Alas, this was not the case. But it did include wood pegs. When I proposed that I would
supply some rosewood or ebony pegs myself, the sigh at the other end of the line might as well have spoken as follows: "Poor mortal! So you have
checked and you realize that very expensive-looking pegs can be acquired for about $15 for a dozen? Since you wish to deprive us of our proper and
customary markup on the pegs, since in fact you devalue our inventory, rest assured that we will not go gently into that good night. You KNOW by now
by how much we will lower our estimate. Why do you even bother to ask?" Indeed, they quoted $280. That $5 difference probably allowed for shipping.
JDowning's second approach is a chance to do a lot of fine and morally rewarding work with one caveat: you must align everything perfectly as two
things will happen, one for sure, the other perhaps. The Thing That Will Happen For Sure is that you will not have another crack at it (pardon
the pun). Once the epoxy sets it's set. I suppose there are ways, short of using a blowtorch and chisel, to back out, but for all practical purposes
you are done. The thing that may happen is that you may botch the alignment, which, in light of the Thing That Will Happen For Sure, is
disquieting.
If you're a real mensch that wavers not in the face of decision, and would not hesitate, on a desert island, to remove mum's brain tumor with a spoon,
you are golden. But if you're a weakling like me, e.g. a wind player on a budget, consider what I suggested: test the glue, and if it's heat/water
softenable just schlepp on some of that cheap and inferior liquid hide glue and clamp it. It it holds, string it and enjoy your oud for now. Why?
Because a) Nothing is forever. You could die tomorrow. We could die today. Do you want to be oudless should that happen? b) using the residual glue is
the best auto-guide to putting it back together. It may be the only way. Once you apply JDowning's Tabula Rasa warfare on the parts with abrasives and
solvents, you will be on your own. You may even find, as you file it, that the apparently solid material turns out to be a clever composite of
flotsam, (previously) held together with glue.
Maybe in 20 years that oud will be a valuable vintage instrument from the beginning of the century? Do you want that epoxy in there when that wealthy
Chinese officer who's pawing through your offerings asks if it's all original?
My approach is temporary. Nothing lost. You can view it as a momentary lapse of conscience. It's the Catholic approach. It might hold for hours,
weeks, months or years, but in any case, you can undo it. If you really hate it, you can probably reverse it and come visit the Manchester coven
claiming you never even tried. And when you have the opportunity and the means you can surely let a pro redo it. Like with Extreme Unction or
Confession, we can always "fix it in the mix". JDowning I bet is a Protestant.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Thanks for your compliments fernandraynaud - and no, I am not a Protestant!
An epoxy repair for this application is perfectly viable, economical and appropriate for someone who - in this case - has no experience of lutherie
work and is obliged to undertake the repair himself. It is by no means certain that the pegbox joint properly repaired with epoxy will ever fail
again. The same cannot be said for the joint if inexpertly repaired with hot hide glue (or worse liquid hide glue. I wonder if this failure is an
example of use of liquid hide or fish glues by the luthier?).
In the unlikely event that the pegbox needs to be removed after an epoxy repair simply run the blade of a fine razor saw (remove the stiff back if
necessary) along the joint surfaces to release the pegbox, clean up the joint surfaces and, after repairs, re-glue using epoxy or hot hide glue if
the joint surfaces are cleaned down to fresh wood.
If the oud is not a valuable, quality instrument today it is unlikely to turn into one 20 years down the road simply because of its age.
If a luthier charges the original cost of a cheap instrument for repairs, it does not follow that the oud will then be worth double its original
value.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Ha! Tell that to the Chinese officer who is pawing through the remnants of Western Civilization 20 years from now. The only saving grace is that he
probably won't know epoxy from fish glue and will trade Mehran a generous loaf of bread for that antique in either case. JDowning, I could of course
invoke the holy organic nature of hide glue over the proposed petrochemical, but I surrender, I've run out of funny things to say. As you point out,
the advantage of epoxy is that he'll be able to bounce the oud, pegbox down, on a cement floor.
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Mehran
Oud Junkie
Posts: 210
Registered: 4-27-2006
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Thanks for all the information. There is certainly much to consider.
The moral reward of fixing it myself is attractive, however to do this i will definately wait until i get back to manchester to consult other oudists.
As for the choice of repair (i.e. glues) it depends on what resources (human and material) i will find.
I may ask a luthier for his opinion (apparently a violin luthier lives nearby - an oud luthier would be preferable but i cant complain). Being able to
see the instrument in person he may be able to provide useful advice.
In the mean time, im gonna take some time to decide my options
abusin - is there anybody in or near manchester who has any experience in oud repairs?
Regards,
Mehran
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Kelly
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 1-30-2007
Location: Manchester, UK
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Hi Mehran
It might be worth taking to violin luthier locally as this fix is quite easily done with god quality glue and set of small clamps (have a look at
Jameels oud making blog). Its quite straightforward to do yourself with well cleaned/prepared surfaces. Otherwise bring it down to Manchester and
I'll fix it for you in 2-3 days.
Regards.
Kelly
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
Posts: 587
Registered: 7-9-2008
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Hi, here is my story:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7841#pid496... and follow ups,
but if you're not sure, consult a lokal luthier.
Best wishes
Robert
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Mehran
Oud Junkie
Posts: 210
Registered: 4-27-2006
Member Is Offline
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I couldn't bear the wait any longer so I took the oud to the violin luthier. He will address both the pegbox and approach the neck-body issue (he said
he has seen this with round back mandolins).
He also claims to use hide glue (the supposed catholic approach). Hopefully he can produce a decent result, and prevent worsening on the joint. He
said it will take a week, and offered it at a fairly reasonable price for a student.
In other news - I kind of committed oud-adultery in Casablanca where I visited khalid belhaibs workshop. Simply put - nice guy, nice ouds. I really
liked his bashir-ouds, and am thinking of ordering one.
This plus the whole repair incident has me pondering over the idea of purchasing a new professional oud. However i still need to consider the design
options/materials and alternative choices in any case.
-------
Rojaras, I remember your thread from a while back but couldn't find it for the life of me - an innovative solution. Unfortunately I lack the temporal
means to fix an instrument at the moment. Cheers though
Kelly - thanks for the offer. I mean no disrespect going to the luthier, but could wait no longer. Im sure you all can appreciate the frustrations of
not playing oud for a few weeks!
Thanks for the support, let you know the results.
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Kelly
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 1-30-2007
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Mehran- no worries you did the right thing- like I suggested there are always options- just glad to provide help and support. Hope to meet up in
Mnchester soon. Myself ,Awad , Osman and Glenn as well as others regularly meet up in Hulme Community Hall on the weekend so let us know when you're
about.
Happy Ouding!
Kelly
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paulO
Oud Junkie
Posts: 535
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: California
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Hi Mehran,
You have to find your oud fixers where you can, I took my oud to Ervin Somogyi at his shop on Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley, CA many years ago -- he
fixed the pegbox/neck joint on my first oud. At that time (mid 1970's) the closest oud maker was Pete Kyvelos in Belmont Massachusetts.
Also -- to anyone ordering a custom oud; it may not turn out the way you want, and not in terms of looks or feel, but sound. Good luck man.
Regards..Paul
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