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Jono Oud N.Z
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So Jono Oud N.Z - what do you mean by 'just being too PC' - a term that I am unfamiliar with? I am a bit disappointed to learn that my posting of the
paper by Jeremy Montagu has been perceived by you as criticism of your 'pipa' topic. It was just posted for general information and relevance -
written by an internationally established expert in both 'Western' and 'Eastern' organology "Is there any particular reason to deny 'the' connection
between the Persian and Chinese cultures in history" (i.e. relative to the pipa and oud) - I don't know but am eager to learn from you. Space is
limited on the forum to get 'in depth' on the topic - apart the few images and statements posted to date. Perhaps, therefore, you could provide a link
to any articles or research papers that you have published on this important topic? I have no doubt that they will be well researched, informative and
so, will be well received by everyone interested in the history of musical instruments world wide.
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The paper by Jeremy Montagu is very good.
The criticism I was referring to was your's not his:
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Be careful about making assumptions about the origins of instruments or how they might have spread (and developed) from A to B over millenia - just
because they have a similar appearance in the early iconography.
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I used the term 'PC' (politically correct) to express that while it is good to not assume anything, one should also not be afraid to look for the
origins of music and instruments, arts etc.
The question of origins should not be offensive, of course most things useful have been created by a cultural dialogue and exchanges of ideas not in
isolated ethnic communities.
The fact that the barbat had spread to China by the 5th century was a new discovery to me, made quite by accident.
The Chinese already had a lute, more similar to the ruan before the pear shaped one was introduced.
My topic of research at the moment is based on the Demetrie Cantemir collection of instrumentals.
After I have finished this I plan to focus on Chinese music from the Tang and Song dynasty's.
So far I have been discovering the Nanyin repertiore, the recordings of Tang notations from Dunhuang and all things connected.
So I have not written a paper on the subject as yet.
But I plan to write on Chinese court music in the future.
The Garland and Grove encyclopedias and JSTOR are where I have learned most of this.
There is also a good documentary about the many Dunhuang paintings of musical instruments.
http://www.cgcmall.com/products/Follow-me-in-Chinese%3A-Dunhuang-Ch...
The topic simply started with an interesting picture of a pipa.
I wanted to share this with the oud community.
I am interested in these areas, and the general history of the Chinese Imperial periods.
By no means do I think I know everything about it - far from it.
Medieval Chinese music is new to me but very fascinating to learn about.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/459043/pipa
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One of the earliest illustrations that we have is on a Persian vessel of late Sassanid date, again in the eighth or ninth century AD, and the
instrument there looks rather more Chinese than Arabic. This raises the possibility that rather than starting in Central Asia and going south to
Persia and east to China, it might have started in China and travelled along the Silk Route to Persia.
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(Jeremy Montagu).
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=13484#pid92...
http://rihlah.nl.sg/Paper/Lary%20Francis%20Hilarian.pdf
http://www.danwei.com/the-pipa-how-a-barbarian-lute-became-a-nation...
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Dr. Laurence Picken article on the short-necked lute:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/842155?uid=3738776&uid=21...
Dr Picken's research on Tang Dynasty music is an incredible work.
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jdowning
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OK. I thought that the term 'Politically Correct' had long since gone out of fashion - certainly it has been quite a few years now since I last
remember hearing it being used - so I found it necessary to consult the Oxford English Dictionary for enlightenment. The OED defines PC as"the
avoidance of forms of expression or action that exclude, marginalize, or insult racial and cultural minorities" so I am still none the wiser about
what you are trying to suggest in the context of this topic. You also state that "the question of origins should not be offensive" Well of course not
(and I can only speak for myself) - and neither do I have any fear or predudices preventing me from looking into for the possible origins of music and
instruments, arts etc. - subject matter, however, that is far from being 'black and white'
Jeremy Montagu's paper that you quote from cautiously suggests (just a possibility note) that the oud like instruments depicted decoratively on
vessels dating to the Sassanid era might have come to Persia from China via the Silk Road. This appears to be contrary to your beliefs expressed
earlier in this thread. Not that you are obliged to agree with anything Jeremy writes about but I am sure that you would not be accused of 'just being
too PC' if you did.
Your link to the G.S.J. Lawrence Picken paper unfortunately gives only the first page so the article is inaccessible to most of us. Note, however,
that the article was written over 50 years ago in 1955 so I do not know if the findings (whatever they may be) would still be considered valid? A lot
of water has flown under the instrument research bridge since then. Certainly Jeremy Montagu - as a long standing member of the Galpin Society - would
have been familiar with the article when presenting his paper in 2003.
I was hoping that you had done some original research into the possible origins of the pipa/barbat/oud/lute and other instruments of apparently
similar geometry that might help to advance our knowledge of how these instruments may be related historically and how they may have spread. However,
as you appear to have relied upon the published theories of others in forming your ideas I guess that the 'status quo' will remain for the time being
at least.
Always best to use caution when speculating about what might have been in the dim and mirky depths of history.
All that aside, good luck and every success with your investigations into Chinese early music.
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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
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I only have a moment so will just paste this and hope it my lead somwhere interesting:
http://www.rhubarbinfo.com/history
Good Luck too-
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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Wow a chinese Rubab!!! So an Arab word used for a traditional and original chinese foodstuff which you can play with a bow or a fork!!! I personally
like rubab crumble.
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1124
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I thought that the term 'Politically Correct' had long since gone out of fashion
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I am glad you are fashion conscious.
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Jeremy Montagu's paper that you quote from cautiously suggests (just a possibility note) that the oud like instruments depicted decoratively on
vessels dating to the Sassanid era might have come to Persia from China via the Silk Road. This appears to be contrary to your beliefs expressed
earlier in this thread.
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If you read the articles I linked too it is clear that the barbat was imported into China from Central Asia and Persia, not the other way round. The
Chinese acknowledge this fact.
Also, J. Montagu mentions:
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One of the earliest illustrations that we have is on a Persian vessel of late Sassanid date, again in the eighth or ninth century AD
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The pictures I linked to show Sassanian depictions of barbats in the 3rd and sixth centuries.
As I said i am focusing on early Ottoman music at the moment , but will look further into Chinese music in the future.
I seem to detect some sarcasm from you?
Is there some reason that the writing needs to be from me in particular? The subject is not exactly new.
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Always best to use caution when speculating about what might have been in the dim and mirky depths of history.
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Speculating?
I suppose that you think that the European lute has no connection to the barbat/oud either?
Medieval European history is way murkier than Chinese history, particularly of the early medieval period.
Why would the Chinese acknowledge the foreign import of the 'western lute' if it had originated in China.
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you appear to have relied upon the published theories of others in forming your ideas
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You are relying on the published work of Jeremy Montagu.
Do you have some similar published (or un-published) work on the subject?
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Oh dear! Resorting to sarcasm, (as in "I'm glad you are fashion consious" ) will get you nowhere fast as a researcher in attempting to gain support
and credit for your theories. Makes one wonder why you are being so defensive doesn't it?
No I do not rely upon the published works of Jeremy Montagu I just posted the article for educational interest not just for your benefit but for other
interested parties.
No I do not have any published or unpublished works on the subject (of how the pipa or barbat may or may not have transformed into the oud or
whatever) - that is your declared field of interest not mine and you have me given the impression on this thread that you have undertaken extensive
research in this field.
Yes I do have a number of published works related to how the mediaeval oud might eventually have developed into the lute of the 16th C and later-
based upon comparative geometrical studies of surviving instruments - and no the popular theory that the Moorish occupied Iberian Peninsula may have
been the source of these instruments is not part of it. My research in this area is ongoing but if you care to check out this forum or the pages of
FoMRHI you will obtain even more information to include in your research portfolio that I hope might be found useful.
BTW rootsguitar you do realise don't you that in the British sub culture at least 'Rhubarb' is something of a joke? Nice one!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/6701809/The-Kitchen-Thinker...
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
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So this was sincere then, without any sarcasm?
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I have no doubt that they will be well researched, informative and so, will be well received by everyone interested in the history of musical
instruments world wide.
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attempting to gain support and credit for your theories
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These are not my theories.
Do I have to had material published on the subject of the Pipa having its origin in the Central Asian / Persian barbat to be able to post pictures and
comments on the subject?
I simply find it very interesting and have been reading about Chinese music and the Silk Road etc.
If there are any discoveries you have made relating to the subject I would be interested to know.
As I said I started this post with a picture of a 5th century pipa that is clearly related to a barbat/oud.
This seems interesting, does it not?
Also I apologise for my sarcasm, you are right, I should not resort to sarcasm, and my use of the term 'PC' was also careless of me.
It sounds like you have done some very interesting research, good work.
It would be good to read some of it at some point if possible.
You sound like you have been involved in academic writing
longer than me.
I am only in the early stages of my PHD.
My topic as I mentioned is on the interpretation of the pre 1600 Ottoman court music instrumentals.
The Chinese music is new to me but it is very interesting.
Salaam.
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spartan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 207
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Location: Athens , Greece
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Hey
dont know much about barbat and pipa history.
and my english is very broken 
BUT I like a lot the ancient sculptures and carvings you posted. Not only because it's oud related but also as art its self.
I m not an expert at this. I guess the lute-shaped instruments (pipa-barbat-lute-lavta-oud-rabab-sarod) are an archtype kind of instrument that all
the Orient played .
Just like the bowed instruments (lyra-keman-rebab-djoza etc.)
Just like the wood flute instruments etc.
The old paintings and sculptures are magnificents because prove the connection between these civilisations at such an ancient time and even between
rival civilisations.
Thanks for posting, keep the good work.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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While I only have a passing interest in the pipa and Chinese music (of any era) we do have some common ground Jono Oud N.Z. that might provide further
clues about the development and spread of the pipa/oud/lute etc - that is the strings themselves.
I had intended to raise the subject earlier on this thread but this might now be a good time to do so.
As I understand it, the pipa of today(since the cultural revolution in China) is a completely different instrument (both in structure and sound) to
the pipa of ancient times. The strings once were made of silk but are now metal.
The strings of the early oud were made either from silk or gut or both in combination. There is no direct mention of silk strings being used on the
European lute at any period which is kind of strange if the lute is supposed to have been developed from the oud. However in much of the earlier text
referring to lute strings it is sometimes not clear if either gut or silk is being referred to.
I have been in involved for some years in investigating how the early silk instrument strings might have been made - 'hands on' experimental research
that is ongoing (but has been suspended for a while). Details of early silk string making is sparse and made more difficult by the inaccessibility of
the early Chinese, Arabic, and Persian texts where much is lost in translation it would seem.
It is a long story but this topic that I started a few years ago and is still incomplete will give some idea of the problems in attempting to recreate
silk strings that work. Note that the structure of strings made for the oud appear to have been different to those made by the Chinese. And then there
is the question of where the raw silk came from in the first place - China is the assumption but was that the original source of silk? Cultivated silk
perhaps but then the other source of silk is wild silk still harvested in India. Lots of unanswered questions remain that may never be resolved.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10010
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
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Excellent point.
I had not even considered the strings!
This is very interesting, so sometimes oud strings were silk as well as gut?
I do not no anything about the strings apart from the fact of gut being used before nylon (like the Maghrebi 'ud arbi).
Were steel strings used at all?
I will have a look at the thread you linked to.
The Nanyin (or Nan Guan) music genre that is specific to the Fujian region still uses an older form of pipa, called Nanyin pipa.
The music often uses heptatonic scales as well as pentatonics
This music has links to the court music of the Tang period (618–907) or even earlier, but can be at least traced to the Song dynasty (960-1279).
The strings are often nylon these days but were previously silk.
http://www.imc-cim.org/programmes/WFM2/WangY.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRaqhIPHwX8
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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I have written about strings in some detail on this forum and elsewhere so you will have to search for more information but, essentially the strings
are the soul of any chordophone instrument and the material they are made from and their costruction makes a huge difference not only to the sound of
an instrument but in dictating how an instrument must be designed and played in order to get the best out of an instrument acoustically.
So an oud that you hear being played today with its nylon trebles and metal overspun basses is not at all representative of how an oud of the 14th C
might have sounded. The same must also apply to any 'traditional' Chinese instrument that was once silk strung (like the Guqin for example).
From at least the end of the 17th C but probably much later (when metal overspun strings became available - in Europe at least) until the 1960's when
modern nylon strings became generally available, the oud was strung with gut trebles and metal wire overspun on silk filament for basses. This allowed
a shorter string length. So again a 19th C oud (those that survive) will sound quite different to an oud of an earlier period strung entirely with
plain silk or gut strings (or a combination of both). These early ouds (they were fretted) would have had a longer string length as well in order to
sound well with these strings.
According to historical record Ziryab (early 9th C) appears to have been the first to use silk strings on an oud. They were not spun in hot water as
was the custom (as it presumably was for Chinese made instrument strings?). The gut that he also preferred to use were from the intestines of a young
lion (perhaps the origin of the term 'catgut' for European gut strings made from sheep's intestines?). Early oud strings were also made from sheep's
gut by preference over other types such as goat.
The most important agricultural industries of Moorish 'Spain' were sericulture (silk) and sheep farming (as well as their associated lucrative
industries such as wool, silk fabric etc - including presumably silk and gut string making). These agricultural industries were essentially destroyed
by punitive measure by the conquering Christian rulers in the late 16th C (living as they were on borrowed financial time on gold and silver from the
America's). The expert practitioners of these industries - the Moors and Jews - were then expelled (if they were lucky) to other regions (the Ottoman
Empire) to beneficially practice their skills again. Both gut and silk strings were likely also being produced in other parts of the Empire (Persia
for example) where sericulture was practiced.
Metal strings were not used on the oud but were sometimes - although rarely - on some types of lute (the large Chittarone for example).
Of course, no early gut or silk strings - being organic materials - survive. So the only way to recreate the sound of the early pipa, oud or lute or
whatever is to first recreate the strings. This is quite a challenge for the modern historical string maker given the lack of available historical
record concerning string making particularly for the thicker bass strings. All made more difficult (if not impossible) by changes in agricultural
practices that have made many domesticated breeds of sheep extinct) as well as changes in string making procedures (such as working with intestines
preserved in salt rather than fresh from the abbatoire).
Silk strings have an advantage in that they can be made more cylindrically uniform and stronger than a gut string (that has not been ground to a
uniform cylinder by modern methods).
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
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Thanks.
This is all very good to learn.
I will have a look at some of your previous writings on strings.
I have some recordings of the silk string guqin.
Here is one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjPmTTCQvbM&playnext=1&list=...
This area of strings has been a bit of a blind-spot for me.
It makes me think of the music and style of Salim Fergani on the 'ud- arbi.
I am pretty sure He plays with gut-strings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv0iUldbdSQ
There is a recording of Omar Metioui playing a gut-strung oud too, Taqsim Raml Al-Maya (also played with an 'eagle - plectrum', liner notes).
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/metioui.html
David Parfitt, your website has always been very helpful ever since I discovered the oud.
One of the best oud and maqam sites.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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If you are interested in the Guqin you will find in depth information on John Thompson's website at:
http://www.silkqin.com
John Thompson plays the instrument fitted with traditional all silk strings - so you can gain an appreciation of how the old guqin must have
sounded.
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1124
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Yes I am very interested in the guqin.
Thanks.
This forum is a good way for people to learn from each other.
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The old paintings and sculptures are magnificents because prove the connection between these civilisations at such an ancient time and even between
rival civilisations. Thanks for posting, keep the good work.
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Thanks Leonardis, your encouragement and comments are always appreciated
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Note that the wound strings of the pre 1960's era were also constructed of metal wire wound on a gut core (as an alternative to silk filament) - not
to be confused with the 'all' gut plain bass strings that preceded the introduction of wound strings.
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
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Thanks
Interesting stuff!
So the earlier strings you mentioned should be the ones at this time?:
http://www.allmusic.com/album/archives-of-arabic-music-vol-1-mw0000...
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Impossible to judge from the recordings but unlikely. As far as I have been able to establish from a very limited first hand examination of oud
strings of that period (prior to 1960), at the beginning of the 20th C oud strings being employed would be gut for the first two or three courses and
copper wire wound on silk filament or gut core for the others (3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th as applicable). We do not know if this type of string was being
made locally (specifically for ouds) or conveniently imported from Europe (where they were being marketed for guitars). In fact, it would seem, there
is currently no information at all about local string manufacture in Middle Eastern regions for this time period and certainly nothing before.
Information about past string making practices in the Middle East might provide an important historical link with early European string making
practices - about which something is known but not very much as far as critical detail is concerned. Unfortunately, the old strings - all discarded
once used (we all do it - today as in the past) and being made from organic materials, have long since rotted away so there is very little, if any,
material evidence surviving for analysis (much the same situation for the instruments themselves). Also, a culture of 'out with the old and in with
the new' (Al-aDin - 'new lamps for old', Tales fromArabian Nights) pretty well guarantees problems for those attempting to research the past.
As far as we know, from contemporary accounts, European lute strings (from the early 16th C onwards) were made from the gut of sheep - without metal
wire windings to add mass to the basses in order to improve acoustic performance (until the late 17th C). By the mid 17th C string technology (in
Europe) had developed to the point where the largest diameter gut bass strings of a 10 course lute had a sustain of 20 seconds (Marin Mersenne) i.e.
at least equal in performance to a modern plastic wire wound string. How these strings were designed and made to achieve that level of performance
remains something of a mystery to the modern historical string maker attempting to replicate strings of the past made solely from pure sheep's gut.
The situation with the plain gut strung oud of only four, five or six courses may be less of technical challenge but a challenge nevertheless. I know
of no string makers in the Middle East who are making all gut (or silk) strings for oud - most likely because there is little interest among most oud
players in trying to recreate sounds of the distant past.
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
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Al-aDin - 'new lamps for old'
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The quote from Arabian Nights is a good one and very appropriate.
I am glad that at least not all oud players are playing Joe Satriani style on the electric oud. (etc, LOL).
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The situation with the plain gut strung oud of only four, five or six courses may be less of technical challenge but a challenge nevertheless. I know
of no string makers in the Middle East who are making all gut (or silk) strings for oud - most likely because there is little interest among most oud
players in trying to recreate sounds of the distant past.
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You have therefore brought as you said earlier, a very crucial aspect of historical music to light again; the strings.
The 20 second sustain with gut strings is impressive!
Also the idea of attempting to recreate period art music from the Middle East (and the Far East), is slowly catching up with the Early Music revival
in the West.
Fikret Karakaya from Bezmara mentioned (on a Bezmara doco' and liner notes to CD's), that he was inspired by the Early Music revival in the West
(David Munrow, Jordi Savall etc), to try recreate historical Ottoman court music on period instruments.
His work along with Majnun Karimov is amazing.
We are now able to hear the chang, miskal, kopuz etc.
A slightly different project is that the Chinese have also created a modern konghou that was inspired by their long extinct instrument.
(http://www.harpspectrum.org/folk/Chinese_Harp_Konghou.shtml)
It would be good to find out more about the strings pre -1960. As you said this is no easy task.
Whether the strings were imported from the West or not is particularly interesting.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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But how can one recreate the sounds of say the 16th C Ottoman court music when no original instrument of the period (or its strings) survive - not to
mention the interpretation of the music or performance techniques (if written record does not exist). One cannot reliably depend upon one's 21 st
century musical perceptions and experiences alone to accurately perform music from a time more than four centuries (or more) in the past.
Quite a few of the modern so called historical performances of the early European repertoire during the past 50 years may impress an uninitiated
audience with their unfamiliar sights and sounds but fail to live up to the promise of authenticity in many respects. The performances may often be
enjoyable to the auditor (myself included some of the time - music is music after all) - but the claims may otherwise be seriously misleading if
presented as authentic performances on so called 'period instruments' when they are not.
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Jono Oud N.Z
Oud Junkie
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I agree that to be able to reproduce historical music exactly as it was performed at the time is not really achievable 100%.
Still we can at least try to perform these old pieces.
As far as strings etc this is more difficult.
Concerning rhythm and intonation a lot is clearer.
For example, in the Cantemir collection there are (often) indications of the basic tempo of a piece.
The scale in use at the time is expressed in the fretting of the Ottoman tanbur in Cantemir's day.
The more recent changes in intonation in Turkish music post date 1700-1750.
In other words the scale was simpler and the notes Segah (and octave), Iraq and Awj were the only 'quarter-tones' in these pieces.
This is what brings pre 1750 Ottoman music closer to Persian and East Arabic styles in both intonations and tempos.
The historical miniatures and paintings (Persian, Arabic,Turkish, Byzantine etc) etc are one good source for instruments and also the writings of
Western visitors to the Ottoman court.
Of course nothing is perfect, but I really like to try to play these old pieces and have certainly been inspired by Al Kindi and Bezmara etc.
These old pieces seem to have a fresh and interesting appeal, old is new.
In my opinion they deserve to be heard today.
I am a big fan of early Western music and its varying interpretations as well.
I also agree that there is not only one interpretation of a historical piece, whether it is from the 19th or the 14th century. I am not a purist and
enjoy a lot of different musical styles. The idea of 'bringing these old pieces to life' is more important to me than an exact historical performance,
which as you mentioned is not very realistic to be able to achieve.
So the focus becomes on what we can do and not on what we can not do.
History is a major interest to me and goes way beyond music, as the saying goes' truth is stranger than fiction'.
Although Arabian Nights is amazing, I really enjoy to read those stories and others in the style, classic storytelling.
Naguib Mahfouz is one of my favorite contemporary writers, but he is a master storyteller rooted in the ancient art.
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