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big thread on pickups

eliot - 1-15-2007 at 08:37 AM

I've gone over the last year and a half of posts on the oud forum about electronic pickups and preamps, and was wondering in 2007 what people who perform regularly with pickups/preamps are finding to be consistently reliable, good-sounding, and feedback-immune systems. For my current gigs I'm using a microphone (Beyerdynamic M88) with no problems, but I have some upcoming ones where a mic just won't do. For one oud, i will need an external pickup system; for the other, plan on doing a permanent internally-mounted system.

The idea of this post is that the first message can be updated to reflect current US prices and availability, while in replies people can report on their experiences with various products (pro and con). It's best if you can post sound clips of pickup/preamp combinations.

A summary of past posts:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10556
Audio samples and discussion of the Pickup the World pickup and preamp

http://mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2828
The main (multilingual) thread about K&K and Barcus Berry pickups

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4536
Where the Fishman Pro-EQ is recommended by MultiKulti

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4519
gives a summary of soundboard pickups

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=4149
includes discussion of various preamp choices

Here are the major pickups available on the market now:

Pick Up the World oud pickup use piezoeletric film rather than piezo transducers. They can be externally or internally mounted with double-sided tape, putty, or superglue. The same company makes a preamp that is optimized for this kind of pickup called the PUTW Line Driver. The pickup is $125, the preamp $125. [users: eliot]

Schertler Dyn-E and Dyn-G Electrodynamic Contact Transducers use a different technology than piezos and sound more like a microphone than a piezo; they also have hotter output and don't necessarily need a preamp. They're externally mounted with putty, and expensive - $370 [users: al-Halabi]

Shadow Electronics SH 700 NFX external mount bridge pickup system built especially for oud - $210

AKG C411 stick-on condenser microphone - (be careful: the L-version requires expensive AKG accessories to run; the PP-version requires a phantom power mic preamp in order to receive its power). This fastens like a pickup, but is more like a mic, in that you run it into a mic preamp and not a piezo preamp. - $160 (very hard to find) [users: teslim]

KK Sound Twin Classic
twin-spot dual piezo element pickup system for acoustic instruments (internal or external) - $64 [users: billinpitt]

KK Sound Pure Classic
quad-spot dual piezo element pickup system (internal or external) - $154 [users: teslim]

Viken Najarian's wooden transducer, a single element external piezo system. $75 (price as of 2004) [users: Brian Prunka]

Schatten Dualie Acoustic Soundboard Pickup dual-element piezo with 2 attached piezos. They claim lower feedback, but the piezos aren't adjustable like on the KK system. Internal or external - $55

Fishman SBT-E classical guitar pickup, a single-element piezo design. (This is identical to the SBT-C, but has a 1/4" input jack). They recommend using it in combination with a crown internal mic and mixing it with their Pocket Blender mic/di 2-channel preamp/mixer. - $79 [users: ChrisOud]

Barcus Berry 1457XL "Outsider" Piezo Transducer, a bar-style external mount pickup - $50

Here are the major preamps available on the market now:

LR Baggs Para-Acoustic DI - has phantom power input and a usable eq - $159 [users: Monty88]

LR Baggs Venue DI - has extensive EQ and routing options (but no phantom power, and is a bit noisier than the Para-Acoustic DI) - $299

Fishman Pro-EQ II has limited eq, and uses AC or a 9V battery for power - $129

Fishman Pro-EQ Platinum - has phantom power input and a usable eq. - $169

Boss AD-3 Acoustic Instrument Processor uses digital effects to model "acoustic ambience," and has phantom power input and a basic eq - $154

Tech 21 Sans Amp Para Driver DI has phantom power, limited eq, and distortion/drive - $209

Radial Tonebone PZ-Pre. The most "advanced" DI pedal on the planet, perhaps - can input 2 separate DI channels, with separate, optimized inputs for piezo pickups (the kind we use on ouds). $299

I need 2 systems, myself:
1) an internally-mounted system that will be used with effects (i.e., non-traditional or contemporary oud sound)
2) an externally-mounted system for my Yucel and Ramazan ouds that needs to sound as natural as possible

What works? What doesn't? For the internally mounted need, is there any under-bridge system that works with oud? Has anyone tried the internal pickup and mic combination?

Thanks, hoping this will be a lively and informative thread.

update 01.29.2007:
had an email exchange with teslim, who indicated that he has tried every model of pickup I listed above (except the shadow - still no known users for this pickup), and feels that the AKG C411 (new addition to the list) and K&K 4-spot pickups are about the best. The Schertler required a lot of EQ to sound good, and still was feedback-prone when the sound level passed a moderate volume level. I've searched around - the C411 is available more readily in Europe than in the US.

update 04.09.2010:
New pickup and several new preamps added to the chart above!

Audio samples and review of the Pick Up the World pickup and preamp posted on this thread...

eliot - 1-15-2007 at 08:45 AM

I'll start it off with what I've tried in the past:

1) I first used a Barcus-Berry bar-pickup system. It sounded horrible, and was feedback prone (this was back in 1993-1994; things may be better now).

2) I used to use Viken's pickup by itself and with a couple of preamp systems. It worked ok, but I found there to be an unpleasant edge to notes played on the nylon strings, and note attacks often created strange audible sounds that I didn't really like. It worked best through the LR Baggs paraacoustic DI, but even through that system was very susceptible to ground hum noise.

3) I was using a LR Baggs button pickup last year, which burnt out after only 3 months of use. It sounded slightly better than Vikens, but had the same problem with note attacks. Build quality was very poor on this. When it worked, it worked best with the Sans Amp acoustic driver pedal, or straight into my Marshall acoustic guitar amp (and my friends' Fishman acoustic amp), but still was not perfect.

Thus, I can comfortably say I am not satisfied with the pickup end of ceramic single-piezo element systems.

billinpitt - 1-15-2007 at 08:56 AM

K and K dual classic is pretty good. I was impressed. I cannot comment on how durable it is as I just got it. You can order directly from their website and its a bit cheaper than the stores I think.

I have used the Baggs and Sansamp with guitars with success but not with oud yet.

Brian Prunka - 1-15-2007 at 12:56 PM

I've been using Viken's pickup, but internally mounted, which gets a far superior sound. I got good results with a SWR acoustic amp, but never bothered with a preamp. Mostly I use a mic these days, with sometimes a little pickup mixed in.
I haven't tried the other pickups, though, so I can't really compare. I use a Baggs on my classical guitar and it sounds very good, though I get a somewhat "click-y" attack through the pickup.
I've also used an AKG C411 mini condenser mic that mounts on the soundboard; it sounds quite good, but is certainly not feedback proof.
I've been able to play in pretty loud situations with my cheapo MXL991 condenser. It has impressive off-axis rejection and sounds great for oud.
I think Mav uses a K&K and likes it a lot . . .
Al Gardner was into the Najarian . . .

al-Halabi - 1-15-2007 at 01:28 PM

I recently got a Schertler contact transducer (manufactured in Switzerland). It's pricey, but sounds great.

http://www.schertlerusa.com/dyn.htm

eliot - 1-15-2007 at 02:46 PM

al-Halabi, that looks like an interesting option. I found a comparison of it with other piezo pickups here..., though the demo was on an acoustic guitar and not an oud. But it obviously sounds more like a mic than a piezo.

A few questions for you:
have you used piezo pickups before, and if so, how does the Schertler compare in sound?
Which one did you get? (dyn-G/ dyn-E/ dyn-B)?
Do you use a preamp with it?

thanks!

al-Halabi - 1-15-2007 at 04:00 PM

Eliot, I got the dyn-E (the various models for stringed instruments all have the same transducer, but differ in the way they attach to the instrument). I connect it directly without a preamp and it works nicely. The sound of the Schertler is clearer and more natural than that of the piezo pickups I had used in the past. It sits on a a thin ring of putty rather than directly on the face, and that, in addition to the different electronics, causes it to respond more sensitively to the vibrations of the instrument. I hesitate, though, to make categorical statements about its superiority because many other variables can affect the quality of the sound we get - the location of the pickup on the instrument, the sound system, the venue, our own aesthetic preferences, etc. I think it's worth exploring and comparing with other options.

Monty88 - 1-15-2007 at 05:02 PM

Hi guys,

I've got a barcus berry here, and my preamp is an L.R baggs. It's great when I play saz, with the piezo under the bridge, a shadow one. Anyone find the best place to place the barcus berry? I haven't had the best luck yet, so I'm going to upgrade to the K&K stuff, which I've heard good words about. Eliot?

Regards,
Paddy

eliot - 1-15-2007 at 05:26 PM

I never liked the barcus berry that I had on oud (I don't know if it's the same as you have, though), tried it inside and out, all over the place - major feedback, and poor tone. It's designed for metal string instruments like the saz has, so I'm not surprised you like it on that (I've also seen a pair of them used on Persian santour - sounded great).

I'm hearing a few reports that the K&K twin/dual system is better than a single system, since you can put one on the treble side and one on the bass side, getting a better frequency response. From a technical standpoint it should reduce feedback a little bit, as well. The cost isn't high ($64 or less online), and you can use the same preamp with it. The sound recordings I heard of it used on acoustic guitar, though, and the 2 times I've seen oud players use it in concert, it still had a little bit of that bite that piezo systems always have. This could be useful (if you have to play against a lot of percussionists, for example), but isn't as "natural" sounding as a mic.

Monty88 - 1-15-2007 at 09:40 PM

No I've never used it on my saz, I was referring to the preamp. My main saz, I bought at Tekinler muzik in Tunel, that has a shadow piezo element under the bridge, not a transducer. You'd know eliot, in turkey these days sazes have fishmans and what not on them..........

But, this shadow piezo in one of my sazes sounds really good through the L.R baggs para DI. I was gracing the baggs, not the barcus berry there.

A friend has a greek santouri and is looking for means of pickups for it, he's got my barcus berry at the moment, you suggest two of them?

Interesting.

eliot - 1-16-2007 at 03:37 AM

I've seen some of the Persians in LA using twin barcus berry's on their santours before. Also, I think that's what Ishmail (a professional Assyrian kanun player from California) uses on kanun, with good results.

It's possible that the K&K twin or quad might do even better for santour? I would definitely consider at least a twin pickup system, however, since the floating bridges on the soundboard contribute to a complex resonance system that can't be accurately captured with one mic or one pickup.

oudplayer - 1-24-2007 at 03:37 PM

hey all
would this work for for a electric oud K&K Sound FanTaStick Classic Nylon Guitar Pickup NEW! i really need to know it sounds good but it says for 6 strings and ovasaly i need it for 11 or 12 not sure yet i am not sur ehow these work so can some tell me iof this is good and how i would use it
thx sammy

eliot - 1-25-2007 at 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oudplayer
hey all
would this work for for a electric oud K&K Sound FanTaStick Classic Nylon Guitar Pickup NEW! i really need to know it sounds good but it says for 6 strings and ovasaly i need it for 11 or 12 not sure yet i am not sur ehow these work so can some tell me iof this is good and how i would use it
thx sammy

This would definitely not work. The pickup mechanism depends upon a unique string attached to each nut on a special bridge that would replace your instruments' bridge. There are 6 nuts, for 6 strings.

oudplayer - 1-25-2007 at 12:01 PM

hey eliot

so can u tell me what i can use for what i am trying to build. a electric 11 string oud and i want a undersaddle if posable . under $100
thx sammy

eliot - 1-29-2007 at 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oudplayer
hey eliot

so can u tell me what i can use for what i am trying to build. a electric 11 string oud and i want a undersaddle if posable . under $100
thx sammy

I don't know - the main problem I know with undersaddle pickups is that many of them are based on the length of a guitar bridge, which is different than the length of an oud bridge. In concept, an undersaddle needle should work better than piezo element systems, but there's not enough information shared amongst oud builders about which models work best.

Someone's gonna have to plunk down some money and try a bunch of them out... or convince a manufacturer to make an oud-specific one...

Note: top post edited to include information from user teslim.

oudplayer - 1-31-2007 at 12:58 PM

hey all

SO i just purchesed a undersaddle pick up for my electric oud i got a fishman AG -094 i think thast the numbers the guy told me it would work for what i wanted to do it make for nylon 12 string guitar so it better work.
I will install ina few weeks and tell you hoqw it sounds it can be that bad can it .
thx sammy

eliot - 1-31-2007 at 05:52 PM

Let us know how it goes! If you can make sound samples, even better!

Good luck with the experiments... I might be doing some experimenting myself this spring and summer...

oudplayer - 2-1-2007 at 05:49 PM

hey eliot

When i install it i will tell u how it is and all plus i will make a sound clip
thx sammy
and u tell me what u use and all

POTW oud pickup

MatthewW - 3-15-2007 at 08:29 AM

Hi everyone. Has anyone tried the oud pickup by PickUpThe World? here is the link-
http://www.pick-uptheworld.com
go to 'oud' pickup. thanks.

eliot - 3-16-2007 at 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MatthewW
Hi everyone. Has anyone tried the oud pickup by PickUpThe World? here is the link-
http://www.pick-uptheworld.com
go to 'oud' pickup. thanks.

It looks like either a bridge-pin pickup or a thin piezoelectric film pickup. Never tried it though and I've never seen it mentioned on the board here.

jamloun - 8-12-2007 at 01:52 AM

Hi there,

excellent thread with very valuable information! :applause:

Two questions:

1. Has anyone used an "Audio Technica ATM 350" microphone set-up with a Oud ??? Audio Technica ATM 350 mic
How does it compare to the AKG C 411 L solution and do you know whether feedback is going to be a real problem with either of these mics?
(the Oud will be played in a noisy environment, the ATM 350 is not specifically made for acoustic instruments like guitar or Oud, rather for violin, brass, reeds, etc.) but is supposed to have frequency specs and a sound quality that make it goog for all-around use, If I end up buying one the idea is to use it both for my Oud and for some of my percussion instruments, a sort of two-in-one solution (given the price I will not be able to afford two mics, I was originallt thinking of getting the C419 for percussions: Udu/Cajon/etc.)

2. Eliot, given that you have launched this thread asking about an internal and external solution, I would have liked to know what you ended up using for the external solution? the K&K ? (By the way, the C411 (+B29) is rather easy to find here in France)

a nice sunday to everyone!

eliot - 8-12-2007 at 02:01 PM

I do not know that particular Audio Technica mic. Other mics of theirs are hit-and-miss in terms of quality. Some mics, such as their stereo electret condensors, I feel are considerably overpriced in comparison to their sound quality, while others like their 4000 series large diaphragm condensors are well made, distinctive, and a good value.

$249 seems a bit steep for that mic. If you're going to spend that much, I'd spend a little more and definitely go for a DPA 4060 or 4061 which is unquestionably a studio-quality mic that works well for many applications on stage. But, I could be wrong - I haven't used this exact particular mic, just others from the ATM series

jamloun - 8-12-2007 at 11:54 PM

Thanx Eliot for the helpful info!

1. Has anyone tried the C411 + B29 solution? I'm concerned about feedback...

2. I checked out DPA's website, and they offer the "IMK4061" mic that sticks to the soundboard:

Quote:
" Especially for live applications the IMK4061 also comes in as a useful alternative. It can be fixed directly on the top deck with the supplied Universal Surface Mounts. Choose placement according to the desired timbre.

Anyone actually used this with a Oud? (Maybe a worthwhile addition to the main list of micing options)

ChrisOud - 1-7-2008 at 03:37 AM

I use the fishman SBT-C through an AER amp and it sounds great. Pick-up placement - Go down 5cm in line with the bridge and forward 4cm. (directions are for oud in playing position

OudandTabla - 2-21-2008 at 07:33 PM

I used a Bottle Cap transducer for about 3 years, finally broke down and installed an LR Baggs 'iBeam' under-bridge pickup last spring- the one intended for nylon string guitars. I run it through a Baggs preamp, and the sound is phenomenal. We almost always play through some sort of system ending with 12" powered Mackie speakers, and I coudln't believe the richness of the sound when I switched to the Baggs pickup. They also have an active version, but with the preamp that is unnecessary. I would say to place it as close to the center of the underside of your bridge as possible.

There is also plenty of headroom with gain.

Andy - 10-18-2009 at 07:06 AM

Since I see that this thread opened again I will add my 2 cents I have a Barcus Berry on one of my ouds and have used the K&K twin spot, hot shot and big shot, happy with all. I saw a newer product on ebay, a year or two ago called Recital Pickup made in Germany. Because of poor communication it took awhile for me to install the pickup. The pick up has 2 prongs which is installed through the string holes in the bridge, the higher pitched strings. It stays put with tension. The Recital comes with a sound control and a suction cup that attaches to the butt end od the oud so the cord will not be in the way.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Recitalbox-reverb-device-for-Oud-Classic-guitar...

Aymara - 10-22-2009 at 02:17 AM

Hi Andy,

first, thanks for the tip!

Quote: Originally posted by Andy

I saw a newer product on ebay, a year or two ago called Recital Pickup made in Germany.

Don't misunderstand, what I have to say now, I don't want to offend you!

I visited their website and I have to say, from what I saw there, I would stay away from this product at first sight. What kind of fairy tales are they trying to tell us HERE? Then when I check the video section, I find an MP3 for the oud in 128KBit ... oh man ... every instrument sounds horrible in such a low bitrate. When I watch the video, I see that device attached to the oud and that's it, no further info, no before or after comparisons and no explanations.
And when I read the description, I see that it seems to be easy to install it, but I learned nothing about this device, I don't know what it really does and how it works.

These people seem to know nothing about marketing, after searching through the whole website, I ask myself, what kind of device this thing is, really a pickup?

So it would be interesting to learn more from you, a customer of this product, who can report about his experiences. I bet you have more information for us and maybe a useful sound sample too?

oudtab - 10-25-2009 at 05:59 AM

Bonjour,

An interesting and smart microphone for acoustic string instruments (DPA 4099 - http://www.audio2.fr) :

http://www.laguitare.com/guitare-materiel-banc_d_essai-dpa-4099_gui...

Andy - 10-25-2009 at 09:04 AM

Aymara, No problem, I am not offended. All of us has his or her own point of view. I was refering to the Recital Pickup. If you go the their site, go to products, and then scroll down to #7 this is the product I am refering to. I have no idea how their Recitalbox performs or any claims they make on the product.

Aymara - 10-25-2009 at 09:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oudtab

An interesting and smart microphone for acoustic string instruments ...

..., but for a price of 460 Euro I would expect a better frequency range than 80-15.000 Hz. For that money I myself would prefer a normal sized Beyerdynamic microphone.

Don't you think so?

Andy - 10-25-2009 at 09:37 AM

That is up to you. I like it because, for me, it combines what I want, a pickup that I feel produces a good sound with a volume control. I am only providing this group with another alternative to other pickups. To add, I have used another very popular pickup which I was not very happy with. You may not like it but another will.
The one drawback, for some players the bulk of the pickup may get in the way of playing.

Aymara - 10-25-2009 at 10:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Andy

You may not like it but another will.

Shure ... I was mainly shocked by the price.

Aymara - 11-9-2009 at 01:04 PM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by Andy

If you go the their site, go to products, and then scroll down to #7 this is the product I am refering to.

BTW ... I forgot to ask ... do you maybe have a soundsample taken with this pickup?

How would you rate it compared to your K&K "Twin"?

Large collection of pickup reference recordings

freya - 11-14-2009 at 07:23 AM

Yes, these are all acoustic guitars but it has one of the widest comparison sets I've seen anywhere:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/

For the money, the B-Band AST seems like a very good solution for the oud - no piezo "quack" and simple interior adhesive mount under the bridge. Yeah, the rosette has to come off for installation and you'll need to drill a hole for the endpin in the tail block. I'm going to pick one up for one of my acoustics and if I like it may put one on one of my ouds.

Aymara - 11-14-2009 at 08:02 AM

Quote: Originally posted by freya

... it has one of the widest comparison sets I've seen anywhere ...

I think though guitars instead of ouds were used for the test, this is very helpful to get an impression how good the pickups are.

mjamed - 11-15-2009 at 08:39 PM

Hello All

I just got my new oud which has K&K Twin Spot Internal.

They sound amazing : very clear and well balanced.

Sazi - 11-15-2009 at 08:46 PM

Hi mjamed, just wondering if your oud has soundholes, I mean can you see inside with a mirror and see where the transducers are placed?

thanks, S

norumba - 11-26-2009 at 04:25 PM

for those who have experimented with the K&K products, where's your favorite placement for the transducer elements -- especially for those who've used the four head version?

i'm thinking of getting a setup for my 7 course Iraqi Bashir oud; was also considering how well their floating bridge pickup might work http://www.kksound.com/floatingbridge.html ....

any one else mic'ing up Bashir ouds?

Sazi - 11-26-2009 at 04:54 PM

Hi Stefan, I haven't used the four head version but with the twin spot I found that what worked on one oud wasn't necessarily what worked on another, in fact I had one oud, with a great acoustic sound, that did not sound good no matter where I put the transducers, back to mic's for that one.

You know you can put the twinspot transducers under the bridge too, but with that and with the floating bridge pick-up you have to cut 1.3mm from the height of your bridge, (or cut the string grooves 1.3mm deeper) to compensate for the added height of the trancducers.

Transducers, when all is said and done, are still transducers, only amplifying the wood, not the air, and I'm thinking for myself that a contact mic, such as the AKG 411mk3L may be better tonally, and if you have the B29L 2 channel preamp to go with it you can mix in a mini omni condenser mic mounted inside the oud, I've heard this, and personally I think it's great. Easy on open soundhole ouds.

Good luck with it, S

eliot - 4-5-2010 at 08:49 PM

I've updated the original post with a few more models of pickup and preamp. There are some exciting new products on the market - the Radial tonebone PZ-pre preamp is designed to get the most out of piezo pickups (both the button-style transducers such as the K&K, and the piezo film like the Shadow and Pick Up the World). I'm in the midst of experimenting with pickups and preamps again as I have a couple shows coming up where I will be playing in a large mixed ensemble and will not be able to "compete" if using a microphone (no gain before feedback).

I don't know if it was available before, but I just learned recently about the Pick Up the World oud pickups, and just got one to try out on my ouds (I have some large shows coming up where I will need to be quite heavily amplified, so a mic will not do in those situations). I only had about a half hour to test this out with my Ramazan oud, but through initial testing, I think that this may be the best pickup system for the oud on the market. It doesn't sound the same as a mic, but with EQ, is certainly pleasant and entirely non-abrasive sounding, and most importantly does sound timbrally like an oud. I don't feel this to be the case with most traditional piezoelectric elements, which are basically 60 cent sensors with a very limited dynamic range and uneven frequency response. The piezoelectric film picks up the 60hz-6000hz range quite nicely, but (and perhaps this has to do with placement - I'm not sure) is muted in the higher frequencies. I'm sure that, if one worked out the phase issues, this piezo film blended with a DPA 4061 or 4099 microphone would be THE killer live oud setup.

I hope to post sound samples soon of the PITW oud model through their preamp (in comparison to miking the instrument with dynamic and small diaphragm condenser microphones).

fernandraynaud - 4-5-2010 at 10:21 PM

If we want to get ANY info that we can extrapolate to our own situation, it's very important that any sound file or report be accompanied by w precise description of placement and intermediate electronics.

Piezos are very high impedance devices. This means they are weak generators of voltage. Anything, even cables, that is wired in with piezos makes a complex circuit with them, so that hi-lo-pass filters are created. The frequency response of piezos cannot even be measured, the measuring circuit completely changes the results. You can unpredictably get excellent sound out of simple piezos if you experiment. If you add a buffer circuit, which can be a single transistor or a complex preamp with controls, you can strengthen the signal so it becomes less influenced by what you plug it into. People who claim THEIR piezos have special frequency response are generally selling you a whole expensive assembly. It's not the piezos. The point is that pickups can generally only be characterized in connection with what you feed them into, and where you place the sensors on what type of instrument. So please provide detailed and complete information. Sazi, I don't understand the "under bridge piezos" that raise a fixed bridge???? On an oud??

Sazi - 4-5-2010 at 10:35 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

Sazi, I don't understand the "under bridge piezos" that raise a fixed bridge???? On an oud??

Er... neither do I!!

If you read the post above mine, which was the post I was responding to, you'll see it was referring to an Iraqi Floating bridge oud, hence my mention of the floating bridge transducers.

eliot - 4-6-2010 at 09:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

If we want to get ANY info that we can extrapolate to our own situation, it's very important that any sound file or report be accompanied by w precise description of placement and intermediate electronics.

Piezos are very high impedance devices. This means they are weak generators of voltage. Anything, even cables, that is wired in with piezos makes a complex circuit with them, so that hi-lo-pass filters are created. The frequency response of piezos cannot even be measured, the measuring circuit completely changes the results. You can unpredictably get excellent sound out of simple piezos if you experiment. If you add a buffer circuit, which can be a single transistor or a complex preamp with controls, you can strengthen the signal so it becomes less influenced by what you plug it into. People who claim THEIR piezos have special frequency response are generally selling you a whole expensive assembly. It's not the piezos. The point is that pickups can generally only be characterized in connection with what you feed them into, and where you place the sensors on what type of instrument. So please provide detailed and complete information.

For starters, piezoelectric film and piezoelectric transducers are different sensor types and have different impedances. Piezoelectric film produces about 10 times the output of ceramic elements. It is inaccurate that the frequency response of piezos can not be measured - any sensor's frequency response can be measured, and any sensor will have an optimum operating range. But yes, everything following the sensor can have somewhere between a small and a huge impact on the resulting sound.

I've experimented with ceramic piezo elements for years, including encasing them in different materials, different fastening materials, different preamplification systems (including studio preamps with an input impedance of greater than 10 megaohms), using 2 on different parts of the face, and have never gotten a sound that was oud-like or acceptable by itself. Piezoelectric film, at least, seems to be immediately a better starting point, and I hope through more placement and preamp experimentation to figure out a placement that requires a minimum of signal processing.

I'll have files later, perhaps this weekend, with pictures of placement and a full detailing of the technologies involved. I'm also experimenting with 2 different ouds with quite different sounds - it could be that the Şehit oud I have amplifies better than the Ramazan oud.

This is a work in progress...

Aymara - 4-6-2010 at 09:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by eliot

I'll have files later, perhaps this weekend, with pictures of placement and a full detailing of the technologies involved.

That would be great.

eliot - 4-9-2010 at 05:31 PM

Done!

Posted here...

Aymara - 4-10-2010 at 12:29 AM

Quote: Originally posted by eliot

Done!

Thank you very much ... very interesting and detailed, but too bad you used only 96 KBit MP3s ... that's not enough for sound quality comparisons. If you do a frequency spectrum analysis in Audacity, you'll notice, that the trebbles are extremly thinned out and frequencies above 16 KHz are cut off. Shorter recordings at 224 KBit or even more would have been much more useful.

But nevertheless one can hear a sound difference and I'm coming to the conclusion, that for studio recordings the combination of pre-amped pickup (because of the bass response) and microphone would be ideal. What do you think?

eliot - 4-10-2010 at 12:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Quote: Originally posted by eliot

Done!

Thanks for your comments - I'd post larger if there wasn't the 1mb per file limit (I still have the 16 bit wavs if someone wants to post them - Greg? Mike?). To clarify, it's 96kbps mono (equivalent to 192kbps stereo), which should be relatively untainted up to about 16khz, and besides, the pickup didn't capture any energy much above 10khz!

I'm not sure I'd personally use the pickup for studio recordings that are supposed to sound natural/acoustic in the end. The noise floor is one problem, particularly in the high frequencies. There are other ways of capturing the bass response - many large diaphragm condenser mics (Neumann U-47 type) capture that energy quite well. I chose a small diaphragm mic since that's commonly used for stringed instrument recording and live sound work, thinking it would be a bit more "familiar" for comparison.

But for live - at the moment, I have no hesitations to use this pickup without a mic for blending. And for recording where the oud sound will go through effects such as distortion, phasing, autowah - the pickup is clearly superior to any mic, as it has more "punch" in the note attacks.

I'm not totally sure on the PUTW preamp, thinking of experimenting with the Baggs Para Driver and Radial preamps if I can find a retailer with a decent enough return policy.

Aymara - 4-10-2010 at 01:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by eliot

... many large diaphragm condenser mics (Neumann U-47 type) capture that energy quite well.

I read good things about the Rode M3 as a cheaper alternative ... I'm a bit low on budget and it's frequency range seems to be great ... maybe I'll give that a try once my audio interface is set up ... got it yesterday.

Quote: Originally posted by eliot

And for recording where the oud sound will go through effects such as distortion, phasing, autowah - the pickup is clearly superior to any mic ...

... as on guitars too

Sazi - 4-10-2010 at 03:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

I read good things about the Rode M3 as a cheaper alternative ...

I can second that, I use one for live work, yes, nice smooth & warm sound, a great mic especially considering the price!

Aymara - 4-10-2010 at 06:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

I can second that, I use one for live work, ...

Thanks for the hint ... good to know that you're satisfied. From what I read, it's a good allrounder for nearly all acoustic instruments and even vocals.

In reviews I often read, that better mics usualy cost more than double this price.

The 2 dollar pickup vs. 2 grand mics on a 2 bit oud

fernandraynaud - 4-17-2010 at 02:21 AM

I thought I'd put up a little Suzdal sound sample, using an oud that Alfaraby identified as "worths about a hundred buck or so", recorded with 2 large condenser mics in M/S mode, then with a $1.99 Radio Shack piezo sensor attached to the face with 2 cents worth of double-sided tape.

First of all, I quite like the sound of this oud. I'm not sure why it is below Alfaraby's standards, probably its proletarian appearance. The action is good and coating/sealing/leveling the fingerboard brought out a nice sizzly sustain as a bonus. The olivewood pegs do need re-shaping, but other than that, it's gradually opening up and I'm happier with it than expected. I must be maaad :rolleyes:

For the recordings everything ran into the DAW through a little Behringer mixer. The stereo Mic track is completely dry, no reverb, no EQ, only the M/S matrix decoder was used. Good mics do simplify the task.

The Piezo signal was fed into a $60 ART Project Studio Tube Preamp used as a Direct Input box. The frequency response of any piezo can be HUGELY affected by the smallest detail in positioning on the instrument, a millimeter changes everything, as does the tack of the adhesive. A piezo usually requires significant EQ to compensate, and a deep notch in the midrange was needed for this position. A little short delay was also added to create a sense of depth out of the mono pickup.

Using pickups on an oud is tricky and usually require processing to make the best of it. You don't have to spend a fortune as long as you work at it. If I had spent an extra hour or two, it could have sounded much more open, and with less finger noise

, this isn't a solo Taqsim sound, but it's usable in a mix.

Microphones
Attachment: Suznaki004tX2b.mp3 (974kB)
This file has been downloaded 335 times

Piezo
Attachment: Suznaki007t2X2.mp3 (543kB)
This file has been downloaded 336 times

Aymara - 4-17-2010 at 09:25 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I thought I'd put up a little Suzdal sound sample, ...

Interesting comparison. There are two things that astonish me, first the good bass response of the piezos and second their bad signal-noise ratio compared to the mics that are nearly noise free.

Is the background noise caused by the ART Tube MP?

fernandraynaud - 4-17-2010 at 01:40 PM

Interesting issue. But it's not primarily the ART.

I personally think a lot of people are way too concerned with noise. After working with audio for a long time you realize a lot of what we consider noise doesn't matter. It only matters if it detracts from the material. People don't normally listen FOR noise.

First of all, there are different kinds of noise. Transients like clicks are hard to eliminate and are disturbing. But steady noise, like hum and white noise, are easy to get rid of IF IT'S NEEDED, when it's needed. I don't even think twice about it.

If I wanted to use that piezo for a Taqsim solo, it would need to take on a different character. I'd get the noise down a bit and work on a sense of openness and create an artificial room in which it would live. But paradoxically, to create a sense of ambience you often add white noise.

The approach of vigorously combating noise, which I used to practice, or judging a piece of equipment primarily on its S/N ratio is a mistake. Some "linear" Op-amps used in mixers have a great a meaty sound but have a little more self-noise than some FETs that sound lifeless.

Here is the beginning of the piezo recording, with the native noise (whose spectrum is shown also) and then after reducing it. Where it came from in the first place was likely the noise of the PC fans picked up by the oud right next to the PC, with too much gain in some stage. Semiconductor and resistor noise are as inevitable as life, it's just a matter of when it becomes noticeable. The mic recording was done far from the PC and the mics were driven hard, so the gain could be kept lower.

Easy to cut noise down with today's technology. But notice that reducing that noise also affected the audio a bit, and the decision has to be made in the context of the total purpose. You would NEVER notice that noise in a mix, but you MIGHT notice some artifacts of vigorous noise reduction, so I would defer the decision until much later, not attack the noise at the outset.

Noise at the threshold of perceptibility is very useful to mask some problems, just as signal in turn masks noise. Whenever you decimate a recording from 24 bit down to CD 16 bit you HAVE to add a touch of noise called "dither" so you don't hear the artifacts of this reduction.

All the traditional analog systems of noise reduction rely on the fact that you only hear noise when it's naked, that's where the noise reduction operates. When the music is loud enough, nothing need be done. Modern digital algorithms take a snapshot of the noise, compute a FFT, and add its inverse to the material, with or without taking the total level into account. By storing the sound data in a "look ahead buffer", they can also "predict" clicks and transients and subtract them out precisely when they occur. If you really work at it, you can restore music from wax cylinders almost to perfection. And that's when you realize that going too far is a mistake, it sounds better with some of its original noise.

There is also something in the air of the quietest rooms that is audible as a sort of white noise. Of course you can completely muffle and soundproof the room until it is dead. A recording that is completely stripped of noise sounds dead and unnatural. As usual, things are complicated.

The bass of piezos is generally very good, but you often have to equalize if the treble is too strong.

Original
Attachment: Suznaki007begNoise.mp3 (952kB)
This file has been downloaded 284 times

Noise spectrum:

Noise Reduced
Attachment: Suznaki007BegNoiseRed.mp3 (952kB)
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Aymara - 4-18-2010 at 12:35 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

People don't normally listen FOR noise.

And why then did the CD replace vinyl?

Quote:

But paradoxically, to create a sense of ambience you often add white noise.

I would NEVER do it that way.

Quote:

Here is the beginning of the piezo recording, with the native noise (whose spectrum is shown also) and then after reducing it.

Thanks ... very nice demonstration, how powerful a DAW is.

Quote:

... the PC fans picked up by the oud right next to the PC...

OK, I know, that piezos can show something like a "microphone effect", but hey ... how loud is your PC's fan? I would have expected such a problem with a large diaphragm condenser microphone, which is highly sensitive, but not with a piezo. That's why I asked about the ART amp as the noise source.

Quote:

But notice that reducing that noise also affected the audio a bit, ...

Bingo ... that's it ... and this is the reason, why I try to avoid noise while recording as good as possible. A further reason is, that noise sums up and can make a good mastering impossible because the sound overall becomes too muddy after noise reduction.

Quote:

A recording that is completely stripped of noise sounds dead and unnatural.

NO ... a clean recording is a must for professional high end recording and ambience (e.g. room size) will be added in the mix, where it can be better controlled. But in home recording with imperfect room acoustics and limited budget equipment, it's nearly impossible.

But all this is more a topic for the DAW thread

eliot - 4-19-2010 at 06:10 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

The Piezo signal was fed into a $60 ART Project Studio Tube Preamp used as a Direct Input box. The frequency response of any piezo can be HUGELY affected by the smallest detail in positioning on the instrument, a millimeter changes everything, as does the tack of the adhesive. A piezo usually requires significant EQ to compensate, and a deep notch in the midrange was needed for this position. A little short delay was also added to create a sense of depth out of the mono pickup.

Using pickups on an oud is tricky and usually require processing to make the best of it. You don't have to spend a fortune as long as you work at it. If I had spent an extra hour or two, it could have sounded much more open, and with less finger noise

, this isn't a solo Taqsim sound, but it's usable in a mix.

Thanks for posting the files - this sounds very much like what I would expect from a piezo button - strong bass notes, anything over the open D string has a very aggressive edge and has no acoustic character of the oud itself. There's no signal (only noise) above 6khz from what I can see/hear. I've found that piezo buttons work better on ouds with less sustain than on those with a long sustain and deeper resonance, but to me, the piezo track doesn't really sound like an oud at all. You could do a lot of signal processing to improve this, but my general question is, why start with a source signal that has a poor signal to noise ratio, that needs extreme EQ and perhaps other signal processing, and that doesn't sound like an oud?

fernandraynaud - 4-19-2010 at 07:41 PM

There are so many topics here. Using MP3s I don't think we can be talking meaningfully about whether there's real signal above 6 Khz.

Both dither and ambience are standard studio applications of certain types of noise to enhance a recording. I'm not saying recording next to automobile traffic is preferable to a quiet location.

The issue of vinyl vs CD is not at all clear. I'm afraid the answer is mostly "marketing". When CDs appeared they were touted as sonically much better than they turned out to be. CDs haven't even lived up to their "scratch-proof" property-ty-ty-ty-ty. Most of the high end techno venues in California wouldn't dream of choosing CDs, they use vinyl whenever possible, because vinyl demonstrably sounds better. I have never heard anything on CD sound as alive and real as a vinyl record in good condition. I'm not quite sure why, there are so many specific weaknesses in the CD format.

But it's a little like that with analog tape. Some people who know what they're doing have gone back to making albums on analog 16 track recorders. Here the reasons are a little clearer. And tape hiss is certainly not as terrible as we used to think.

A number of years ago I was more into comparing S/N ratios and micro-examining sound quality. At this point I believe most anything can be made to serve the purpose, and it's the purpose that matters.

eliot - 4-19-2010 at 08:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

There are so many topics here. Using MP3s I don't think we can be talking meaningfully about whether there's real signal above 6 Khz.

MP3s, depending on the compression ratio, most profoundly affect the frequencies above 15khz (160kbps and higher stereo/80kbps mono), or 12.5khz (128kbps and higher stereo/ 64kbps mono). There's obviously signal in the 6-12k band on the mic recording you made, but not on the pickup one.

Quote:

The issue of vinyl vs CD is not at all clear. I'm afraid the answer is mostly "marketing". When CDs appeared they were touted as sonically much better than they turned out to be. CDs haven't even lived up to their "scratch-proof" property-ty-ty-ty-ty. Most of the high end techno venues in California wouldn't dream of choosing CDs, they use vinyl whenever possible, because vinyl demonstrably sounds better. I have never heard anything on CD sound as alive and real as a vinyl record in good condition. I'm not quite sure why, there are so many specific weaknesses in the CD format.

I love vinyl and have a large collection of records I cherish and listen to not frequently enough. But it's not so clear that the delivery medium is really responsible for the sound that we hear on vinyl records. Today's CDs are highly compressed, and digitally processed before they even get to their final delivery medium much more than earlier eras of recordings. However, you can't make a vinyl record that will even play back if one uses the levels of compression used for CDs. They're mastered differently - with less dynamic range compression - and it's partly due to that that the sound is different. Digital made right sounds great.

And it can't be because of the inferiority of the sound of CDs that techno DJs choose vinyl records, since 99.9999999% of all commercially released techno music heard in clubs today that is played on vinyl records was sent to the pressing plants in 16 bit, 44.1khz CD format before being made into metal parts to stamp vinyl records. Many consumers really don't experience what their CDs can sound like through a better set of Digital to Analog converters (that is, the ones that have a chance of sounding good). The tactility of vinyl records is very useful to techno DJs, and there is a lot of nostalgia for vinyl and near-obsession with obscure white-label releases that don't exist in digital formats.

fernandraynaud - 4-19-2010 at 11:38 PM

Everything is a filter. Vinyl works exceptionally for some material, it's not because of the "tactility" of the media. Analog tape is a wonderful compressor. Tube mics have a specific sound, as do some types of cable. My point was that I think everything can be exploited, and I don't find S/N as important as I once did.

But I also think this is way too technical for an oud forum.

Aymara - 4-20-2010 at 12:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by eliot

MP3s, depending on the compression ratio, most profoundly affect the frequencies above 15khz (160kbps and higher stereo/80kbps mono), or 12.5khz (128kbps and higher stereo/ 64kbps mono).

Absolutely correct, even at highest bitrate (320 kbps) the trebbles are nearly completely cut off above 16 kHz. But there's also another downside of MP3 ... you have a lot of distortion in the bass bands.

That's why I always use Ogg Vorbis instead. Most modern MP3-Players nowadays can play Ogg Vorbis and even this junk-software called Windows Media Player can play them since version 11. At 224 kbps (stereo) you get a much superior sound quality than with MP3 with much less distortion problems and a frequency range nearly identical to CD.

Quote:

I love vinyl and have a large collection of records ...

Me too, but my vinyls are clean and dustfree and I have a good Shibata needle. That was not the case with the standard music consumer ... there were usually fingerprints and dust on their vinyls and they used cheap turn tables with cheap needles resulting in the typical campfire ambience

That's why CDs superceded vinyl, not because the sound quality was so much superior ... the standard consumer who uses MP3 nowadays doesn't hear the real sound difference on his/her el cheapo HiFi. If we examine closer, we'll notice that the CD isn't superior to vinyl soundwise, if you handle vinyl correctly and have a good turn table. That's the reason why even nowadays real HiFi enthusiast prefer vinyl over CDs ... too bad that SACD didn't win the fight against the standard audio CD.

But that's a different story

Quote:

And it can't be because of the inferiority of the sound of CDs that techno DJs choose vinyl records, ...

The main reason, why DJs use vinyl is, that it's easier to pitch control ... in a disco club the BPM counts. A second reason is, that vinyl is used for sratching ... and handling vinyl looks cooler ... it impresses young people more.

But back to the pickup topic:

In my opinion even the best pickups on acoustic instruments are ALWAYS inferior soundwise compared to a good microphone.

That's why I would NEVER use a pickup for serious recording.

Many musicians even hate using pickups on stage, but here it's often a real struggle working with mics. This is not seldom a problem with less experienced sound engineers or horrible room acoustics.

Ooh ... sound engineers and mastering engineers ... a further horrible topic ... Fernand already mentioned the compression topic. Many of these engineers ... maybe mainly driven by the music industry demanding louder recordings ... produce real junk.

But this is a different story too

fernandraynaud - 4-20-2010 at 04:40 AM

There's a store in Berkeley that sells nothing but vinyl, they cater to top notch rave sound people, and I've had some good conversations with people there. The mechanics of handling vinyl are not the reason, in fact vinyl is a pain compared to all digital systems that do pitch control and cueing much easier. Most everybody is using Ableton Live and loop files as much as possible anyway, nobody's cuing up songs. The reason for vinyl is the killer sound. Most noticeable in the bass and the top. So: bass & drums. Don't forget I play bass. I've seen rigs where they use vinyl for the bass and drums tracks and layer the rest with ACIDized WAV files.

I have an old pair of ALtec A7-500A (each the size of a refrigerator) and if you cue up one of these custom bass & drums loop albums on a table with an Ortofon cartridge, the house shakes in a special way. I was playing one of these D&B loop albums and me and a friend were playing guitar and synth on top through a Fender Twin with EV-12s (whose magnets weight like 50 lbs each), and the windows were rattling, and coffee mugs sliding around on the tables, but it was a Sunday afternoon so nobody complained. It's amazing what a Fender Twin tube amp will put out! I've never run it higher than an 8, I think at 10 it causes structural damage to most buildings. And out of the blue these two skinny kids that live a block away heard it loud and clear and came over with their guitars to jam! Ha! Now I just have to figure out how best to get pickups working without feedback on one of the ouds, and I'm gonna turn that Twin up until people from Cairo come over!

) Mehdi's got the right idea :bowdown:

No way it sounds the same from CDs. I don't really know why, but CDs sound dry and painful. The fact there's snob appeal is another story.

Aymara - 4-20-2010 at 05:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I don't really know why, but CDs sound dry and painful.

It's easy explained ... there are two reasons:

1. The frequency range ... CD has 20-20.000 Hz and vinyl can have up to 5-50.000 Hz ... you might not hear it, but you feel it (especially the bass)

2. 16Bit at 44.1 kHz isn't enough to compete with an analog signal ... too much dithering!

fernandraynaud - 4-20-2010 at 08:29 PM

CDs have shortcomings in other more important areas. For what it's worth I can tell you of a strange experience, many years ago. I was playing a CD track leaning over the console, with good near-field time-aligned monitors, and the console output was routed to a PCM mastering converter operating in tandem with a VCR (as you normally did in CD mastering). At one point I was amazed at the fact the CD sounded very different, instead of sounding painted on a curtain, it had suddenly acquired that depth that it normally lacks. I started looking at what had happened. The routing had been switched so that it was running through the A/D converters of the PCM unit and back out its D/As, so I was hearing it after an additional A/D/A conversion. These were ordinary 16 bit 44.1 converters on a Sony 501 or 701 PCM unit. I have NO idea why that does what it does. But I can reproduce it any day. The reason CDs sound as they do is much more complicated than what you cite.

Aymara - 4-20-2010 at 11:17 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

The reason CDs sound as they do is much more complicated than what you cite.

Yes, shure ... this could become a very looong discussion, but because it is off-topic here, I tried to make a long story short

Sazi - 9-10-2010 at 04:04 AM

Somewhere in this thread there was something about pick-ups :rolleyes:

I have had a Fishman SBT for a while now, never liked the way it sounded... but I just picked up a Fishman ProEQII and it makes quite a difference.
Obviously I still prefer mic's when the situation allows/warrants, but it's definitely usable, and while the eq is not as comprehensive as the Platinum version it is enough to do some serious tone sculpting, the sliders are quite sensitive, you only have to make a very small adjustment for noticeable effect, so luckily it's pretty much set & forget, only requiring adjustment of the volume.

http://www.fishman.com/uploads/products/documents/69.pdf

Microber - 4-25-2012 at 09:16 AM

Is there a problem to paste a pickup (even temporarily) directly on a non protected soundboard?
I am afraid to damage it.
Any experience ?

Robert

Brian Prunka - 4-25-2012 at 09:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

1. The frequency range ... CD has 20-20.000 Hz and vinyl can have up to 5-50.000 Hz ... you might not hear it, but you feel it (especially the bass)

The frequency response of vinyl is dependent on the size of the grooves and the RPMs. In addition, it has very poor ability to reproduce bass notes at louder volumes because it tends to make the needle jump (because of the logarithmic nature of perceived loudness at different frequencies).

In practice, the frequency response of vinyl of a typical small-groove 33.5rpm LP is much worse than a CD. However, though CD has greater dynamic range in theory, LPs tend to have more pleasing dynamics.

Since bass frequencies can't be made as "loud" on the disc itself, they are a benchmark for other frequencies (ie., you can't over-compress the high frequencies, because it would make the bass seem very weak). In addition, the soft clipping of analog makes loud passages less startling.

While CD could do the same, in practice all frequencies are usually over-compressed because of sheer stupidity on the part of musicians and consumers.

The fact is that once the signal gets to your speakers, it becomes analog anyway--a speaker is incapable of vibrating in a digital way. A well-produced CD sounds as good or better than standard vinyl. A badly produced CD sounds bad, but most of the complaints about CDs are really referring to either the early days of CDs when no one had any idea what they were doing or to the idiotic over-compression of modern popular recordings.

It's true that very high quality vinyl recorded with wide grooves at fast RPMs can outperform CDs, but that is not a typical scenario--you might as well be comparing it with 24/96 audio on SACD.

That said, I listen to vinyl all the time, there are many reasons to like it without all the pseudoscientific attempts to quantify it.

Nobody ?

Microber - 4-28-2012 at 09:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Microber

Is there a problem to paste a pickup (even temporarily) directly on a non protected soundboard?
I am afraid to damage it.
Any experience ?

Robert

Brian Prunka - 4-28-2012 at 01:38 PM

Depends on what you use to paste it.
Most adhesives can damage a sound board. Most adhesives also won't cause as much damage if only left for s short time.

In general, I would say it's not a good idea to stick a pickup on the face of the oud unless you intend it to be a permanent installation or don't care if there is some damage to the face.. On the other hand, if you're installing it permanently, you should probably put it inside.

I haven't found an adhesive that is completely safe to use on a soundboard, maybe others have.

Multi Kulti - 4-29-2012 at 03:21 AM

I used to stick the AKG C411 on the face (before i found out that the sound of it when i stick it on the bridge is better for my taste...so on the bridge is no problem to use the adhesive) using the TESA POWERSTRIPS double face sticks...

they are very very easy to use and they dont damage in any way the unfinished face of an oud.

Microber - 4-29-2012 at 07:25 AM

Thank you Brian and Multi Kulti for your answers.
Actually I can't make easily a permanent installation with the pick up inside because of the rosette.
So the option is to paste for a short time.
Yesterday I did a test with the AKG C411. I pasted it with PRITT Poster Buddies with no dammage. But I used it only for half an hour. The result was fairly good. I have searched for the good spot. But haven't tried the bridge.
Multi Kulti do you have a floating bridge or not. Mine is floating bridge. I will try the bridge.
Another question about the AKG C411, do you use it with the B29L box, or maybe another preamp could be better?

Robert

Multi Kulti - 4-29-2012 at 08:28 AM

I use it with the b29.So you could combine the c411 with any other mic with a mini-xlr adapter. My idea is to combine it with one of the lavaliers from DPA.
Its nit necessary to use another preamp,although a preamp with eq is always a good solution. I use the platinum Eq from fishman ,which has an antifeedback function too. But there are a lot of nice preamps out there (boss,lrbaggs etc etc).

Nikos

Microber - 5-12-2012 at 04:57 AM

Hi Nikos,
I finally gave a try with the AKG c411 on the bridge.
But the result was very bad.
Probably because I have a floating bridge.

Anybody has an idea of which sort of pick up Ara Dinkjian uses in this video? It sounds great.

Ara Dinkjian

Robert

Matthias - 5-12-2012 at 10:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Microber

Hi Nikos,
I finally gave a try with the AKG c411 on the bridge.
But the result was very bad.
Probably because I have a floating bridge.

Anybody has an idea of which sort of pick up Ara Dinkjian uses in this video? It sounds great.

Ara Dinkjian

Robert

Hello Robert,

that looks like a small mic at the rose. But I do not have an idea which it is. I will discover it.

For a floating bridge I have a very good systrem here in my workshop. You can try it in august when you come.

Best regards
Matthias

Brian Prunka - 5-12-2012 at 11:50 AM

I use the AKG411 with a fixed bridge, I put it inside the oud underneath the bridge. I am not sure how it would work with a fixed bridge, but I would guess that if you attached it to the soundboard inside it would work well.

Microber - 5-13-2012 at 02:10 AM

Matthias,
Thank you for your suggestion. I 'll give a try when I come in august.
By the way, is it a secret weapon?
Tell us all a little more.

Brian,
As I already said, my oud has a rosette and I can't reach the inside. But with the AKG C411 on the sounboard, the result was quite satisfactory.
Wich preamp do you use with the AKG ? The AKG B29 or another one?
Any idea of the pick up used by Ara Dinkjian ?

Robert

Matthias - 5-13-2012 at 10:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Microber

Matthias,
Thank you for your suggestion. I 'll give a try when I come in august.
By the way, is it a secret weapon?
Tell us all a little more.
Robert

Hello Robert,

no, it isn't a secret. It is this one:
http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/pickups.html
I have it on stock including the preamt. You can try it when you come in august.

Best regards

MAtthias

pacodelunch - 10-23-2016 at 02:18 PM

I fitted a Baggs ibeam active nylon and I think it is almost perfect for an oud. Trouble is it won't work with the oud-sarod double-neck Edward Powell is building me ..
I highly recommend the ibeam active.

juju - 4-3-2018 at 05:41 AM

Hi,
I recently bought an AKG C411. I put it on the bridge.
I find the sound very correct. It makes the job ... it's less tricky than a normal "condenser mic" if you don't have a sound engineer.
I have to mention that I play in quiet situations.
Best.

stos - 4-4-2018 at 05:03 AM

Hello,

Lately i play in the street with a little roland mobile cube and I put the erlhund mic on the oud and it sound pretty nice. didn't tried it in normal stage venues. Will see.