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diane
Oud Addict
Posts: 41
Registered: 3-22-2010
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Advice on oud buying
Hello all,
I am hoping to begin my journey with the oud soon. I hope later I will be able to make a trip to Palestine for a week or so, in the mean time I will
have to begin closer to home, Wales.
So,...obtaining an oud to work with. I've seen one advertised for £80 - which was less than I expected. I will be a beginner so cannot justify
magnificient oud. Though also I do not want to cause myself difficulties through purshasing a poorly made instrument.
I am hoping for advice. How do I know if it is a good oud at a good price? What are the danger/worry things to look for? I have a musical background
so with a group of ouds I'm sure I can pick one I prefer, however this will not be the case...just the one oud...
Yes, it would seem wise to take an oud player with me, but those I know of are on far distant shores.
What questions should I be asking? What should I be checking for?
All inputs greatly appreciated,
With kind regards, Diane
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Hi Diane,
have look at THIS thread as a first start for further research.
And wait for replies from the UK people in the forums 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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diane
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Posts: 41
Registered: 3-22-2010
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Thanks Chris, I've been learning a lot through your links, and links from links.
Kind regards, Diane
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fernandraynaud
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I'm sure you will see this advice repeatedly, but here goes: try to find someone selling a Sukar for under $500 EU, as they are almost always very
usable, and the cheap ones are a good deal.
Do you have a background with string instruments, like guitar, violin, etc? If so, you might be able to pick out an acceptable oud for £80. You can
get a decent student oud for that much in Egypt or Syria, so with a little luck, someone might be selling one off at that price in Europe too. There's
a big jump in price from a beginner's oud to really polished professionals' ouds. And with a little reading and handywork, you can improve and
beautify a beginner's oud by yourself, learning a lot in the process.
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Aymara
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Hi again!
Do a further search through the forums and you'll be astonished how much information you will find, be it from beginners, who were in the same
situation like you or even from luthiers talking about building techniques ... the later gives more insight in what's important for the instruments
quality. That's how I started research last fall.
Oh, and try to change the title of this diskussion ... put "in the UK" at the end to make the UK people take a look.
Yes, Shukar Ouds is a good advice ... Model 1 is a good beginner model for a average price of 400$.
| Quote: | | If so, you might be able to pick out an acceptable oud for £80. |
Sorry, but I doubt that ... chances are very high, that such an oud leeds to frustration instead of fun. It's similar to guitars ... many students who
start with a very cheap instrument give up learning because of too much frustration.
Diane, look at Falcony's hassle and you'll know, what I mean.
Wait longer, spare more money and get a nice instrument ... the oud is a "magical" instrument, but you won't notice that and won't get drawn into this
"magical world", if you buy a lemon.
| Quote: | | There's a big jump in price from a beginner's oud to really polished professionals' ouds. |
Yes, and once she is willing and able to buy a high quality oud ... there's Michael Moussa in the UK
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Chris, you and I have an ongoing disagreement. At least we agree now that a Model 1 Sukar is good and costs less than $400.
It's all a question of what the user is able to do. I see ouds on e-bay and in private hands that are basic ouds like a typical oudmaker in Egypt
turns 5 of out in 3 days. These CAN be acquired for 80 quid with some luck, as they sell for far less than that in Egypt. If the user can distinguish
a true lemon from a decent instrument, that's a good start. If the user can then put a little work into it, fix little problems, polish it up, they
will be rewarded with a first oud that is good enough to get started, appreciate the music, and learn what they want in their next oud.
If Diane is able and willing, to spend more money, then by all means, Diane, we know it's safer to get a more expensive instrument, especially if you
can't do fixup work yourself. But if you can't spend over 500 Euros, you scan still get a decent oud, you just have to work harder: learn, and do a
little touch up work perhaps.
Chris, telling people they SHOULD/MUST spend well over 500 Euros to have a usable learner's oud is a disservice, because a lot of people these days
cannot spend that kind of money, and it's not accurate anyway.
First, some people work out good deals. My first 3 ouds cost me a total of about $600, that includes the Sukar Model 1 and the Egyptian you liked the
timbre of so much.
Second, we keep seeing people here who have obtained an oud very cheaply, and by the time we see photos we are surprised to find that the ouds looks
OK, but the owner has been browbeaten, and keeps repeating the oud is junk, and THAT's not conducive to enjoyment and learning either! For instance
they complain that the pegs have to be pushed in to hold tuning, and they don't know yet that pegs have to be pushed in during tuning on ALL ouds. Or
they don't know that strings take a good while to stop stretching, and that weather changes cause tuning to slip, or they don't know that almost ALL
good oud soundboards are untreated wood, or that many excellent Egyptian ouds look less refined in their finish than sonically inferior Turkish ouds,
etc etc. The result of telling people they need to get a "superior" oud is that beginners who have an opportunity to get an inexpensive decent oud get
confused and discouraged.
So can we agree that, although it also requires some luck, people who are willing to work a little harder at it CAN get a decent learner's oud
sometimes quite inexpensively?
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Aymara
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Luck, yes, and craftsmanship ... but how many beginners have that or are willing to?
BTW ... do you know, where Diane can get a Model 1 for less than 400$? I think, that's not an easy task for Europeans, but maybe I'm wrong.
I hope the UK people drop in here too ... maybe they have further ideas ... if not, they could report, how they got their first oud.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Hi guys!
Allow me to jump into this discution!
I kind of agree with both! Here are my thought:
1- YES, Sukar model1 is good for the price. BUT Sukar advenced models are even BETTER FOR THE price!
I have the feeling that you, Fernand have never tried one  . .Have
you?
2- It is TRUE that a cheeper oud CAN BECOME as good as the more expensive. But:
a- At what cost? I have DESTROYD 3 of my ouds by trying to improve them! Now that I know what to do, I still have problem perchase the material
I need. And I use lots of time and money. And yesterday, I cut my finger badly "fixing" my oud (driven by curiousity, the the love of oud ) But not everybody have the skills, the time, the know how, and the MONEY to do
this!!
b- we have to get LUCKY! I have played oud for 30 years, and NEVER seen a oud that cost $80!! I would love to see that
So the way I see it both Fernands and Aymaras tips are excellent tips. It all depends on WhO you are, What you want, How lucky you are etc...
Good luck with your quest
P.s. Fernand, Pushing the pegs is not a FACT for ALL ouds!
Only once in a blue moon I need to "push" down a peg. And that applies to ALL the ouds I owned after 1999!
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Hi, Lutt,
Sorry to hear about your finger!
The price she mentioned was 80 Sterling, that's more like $150, and that's a plausible price for someone's forgotten oud. Like there's one for sale on
e-bay that the seller is pretty sure is a Scottish guitar, though he's hoping for more than $150.
I played one of the more expensive Sukars, a model 202 (?). Yes they are great. But I have never played an oud where if you made a big jump in tuning
you didn't have to keep inward pressure with a finger on the tuning pegs. Do you have ouds where you can freely tune up and down all you want and
somehow the pegs don't work their way outward? Can you explain how that works?
And I'm a believer in minimalism. I have all sorts of instruments and equipment I worked hard to get at bargain price, especially when I could not
afford to do otherwise. If somebody had argued that swapping the opamps in my console was a luxury, or an expensive hobby when I got the whole (big)
mixer very cheap and carted it from London to SF and I just needed to swap the chips for it to perform, I would have punched them.
We don't know Diane's situation. Let's see what she says.
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Luttgutt
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SORRY! I thought it says 80$. My mistake 
Well, after I put on the strings and tune for first time, I NEVER need to turn a peg more than a half turn!! Why should you?!
P.S. Well, model1 sukar does that if I keep tuning back and forth. Then it jumps out, yes. But Why should I tune back and forth?
And my pegs DON't produce this "klick" sound I hear often on youtube when folk are tuning! If a peg does that, I put violin soap on it (is that the
right name?), and the klick is over.
Totally agree with you. We don't know waht is Diane situation!
You Hvae the knowledge, the expirience, and you ARE handy (I can see that without even "knowing" you That is why I keep on asking you for advise, and always get grate answers  )
But not everybody can do what you can. You'll have to acknowledge that. My 3 distroyd ouds, and now my cut finger are witnesses
My big respect
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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The finger might be dead but the will is alive!
Even if people don't make mods, they can read and learn and shop smarter. Start out slow. And then, in time, they can start hacking instruments,
dreaming ouds, looking for ouds on cragslist every day, playing oud in their heads at work, and altogether get sucked into this obsession with the
rest of us.
The "tick-tick" is sometimes the wound strings' windings catching on the nut, and that's very hard to completely eliminate once you have it. Same on
guitars.
My Egyptian never "ticks" because it has an interesting solution: the nut slits are so narrow, that many wound strings are captive, and as you tune,
the inner core moves, but the outer layer does not. If you are way off you have to make a big adjustment (that's when you have to apply inward
pressure on the peg), but then it's very smooth. "Whatever works" as they say!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Yes ... though graphit can do wonders to this nut problem, it's sometimes impossible to eliminate without exchanging the nut.
And here we are back to the quality topic:
Some beginners ouds have flaws, that are easy to eliminate ... on others it's a hassle. The Model 1 for example has a varnished fingerboard (if I
remember that correctly), which will wear off soon, look ugly then and might also cause sound problems. But this is easy to solve, as Fernand showed
us HERE.
A nut exchange for example is more hassle ... you need to remove the old one, get a new one (with the same shape) and need to place the "cuts" for the
strings correctly ... often a job for a luthier depending on one's own craftsmanship and available time.
But this are only examples ... there are much more potential flaws on cheap ouds.
So Luttgutt is right ... sometimes "perfecting" a cheap oud costs more money one would expect before.
But we forgot something, which is important too:
Diane, did you already find out, which oud design you like most? Turkish versus Arabic? If Arabic, which type? Fixed bridge versus floating bridge?
Etc.
To find an answer to THIS question a first step might be to search Youtube for oud videos. A second step might be to visit the next UK meeting, if
possible. I myself was undecided, if I would like a floating bridge or not, but when I tried one, I found out, that for me as a former guitarist, this
bridge design is a no-go.
So there are more questions to answer, than price and quality, when buying the first oud.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Of course some fixes are essential and some are preferences.
But Chris I'm serious, think about this: If I had taken the > 500 Euro rule seriously, I would never have been blessed with the oud, because I was
tight on money and I didn't consider an oud a priority at that time. Capisce? It was only because when I was asking, and I got a bit of the usual
"those ouds are junk", and I WAS feeling discouraged, then someone mercifully pointed me to the low cost Model 1 Sukars on e-bay. If not for that kind
Samaritan, rather than developing contemplative Taqasim and Polkas in 13/5 time on this divine instrument, I might be playing country western in 3/4
in a bar in Lodi on the Sacramento delta, with drunk cowboys shooting out the lights and breaking bottles on their friends' heads. For all the people
that speak up and ask, there will be more people reading our posts, seeing the > 500 Euros recommendation, and walking away shaking their heads,
because they THINK they can't spend that much. Do we want to lose potential oudists, people who HAVE realized there is no limit to what they can
mortgage and hock and steal and strip in order to buy ANOTHER oud?
As to fingerboards, coating the fingerboard is something I do on ANY fretless bass or oud, with the possible exception of a fingerboard made of very
high quality ebony, better than what most oud-makers use. Having first done it on basses, I coat everything, I see I'm much happier with the lack of
wear and better sustain. I almost coated our dog. It happens that it helps most with the soft woods used on cheaper ouds.
Nuts are rather hard to work on, but fortunately most nuts are fine as they are, even if they are ugly.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | | ..., I might be playing country western in 3/4 in a bar in Lodi on the Sacramento delta, with drunk cowboys shooting out the lights ...
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You might have become famous in doing so ... lol.
| Quote: | | Do we want to lose potential oudists, ... |
Definitely not, but I think we showed Diane, that it's some kind of tightrope walk to find the right compromise between price and quality ... I think
a high price can shock as much as too low quality can lead to too much frustration.
| Quote: | | I almost coated our dog. |
This one? 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud |
My Egyptian never "ticks" because it has an interesting solution: the nut slits are so narrow, that many wound strings are captive, and as you tune,
the inner core moves, but the outer layer does not. If you are way off you have to make a big adjustment (that's when you have to apply inward
pressure on the peg), but then it's very smooth. "Whatever works" as they say!
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Hmm! interristing! I thought that the nut should be fixed when this happens!!!
NO limit to what I learn on this Forum
I never thought that this is something one "wishes" to accomplish. But wodn't the wounded strings ware out fast then? How often do you change them om
your egyptien oud?
P.s. I have the will (and the bleeding finger
So I am still working on my oud
So a new QUESTION: now I took away the shellac from my finger board (indian rosewood). And I put a couple layers of LEMON OIL. Can I still put
Polymerized tung oil (over the lemon oil, that is)?
P.s. I am not sure that Diane is even READING all this
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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diane
Oud Addict
Posts: 41
Registered: 3-22-2010
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I am! I am! ... though haven't had a chance to read the last couple of mails. Have only had tiny windows to read them in though. When hav ea quite
moment will reply I assure you :-)
My many thanks in the meantime,
Diane
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diane
Oud Addict
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Okay finally got to read all the mails. :-) Definately an arabic oud, Chris, for the bass tones. Floating bridge or not...I'm tended to say 'not' but
it is with no real understanding of the difference it makes to anything - so it would be a rather pointless comment from me! I very much hope to make
it up to Manchester very soon, possibly Easter weekend and I will learn much more then I'm sure with ouds to hand to properly understand.
As someone with no understanding but Vegan I would say lemon oil in place of shellac sounds a far better idea! Yeah, okay, probably don't tell me
about what the strings are made of! No, really! :-)
Best wishes Diane :-)
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Yes, we love it deeep
| Quote: | | Floating bridge or not... |
... is something you should test for yourself ... some love it, some hate it.
| Quote: | | ... I will learn much more then I'm sure with ouds to hand to properly understand. |
It will open your eyes ... and ears
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Luttgutt,
That Egyptian is one reason I have respect for inexpensive ouds. Bottom line: it sounds good, it plays well, I only wish the action were a millimeter
lower.
That nut would be very easy to widen the grooves on a hair, but this way works fine, the strings hold up OK. I don't KNOW if it was done on purpose,
but it seems like it, the grooves are deep and narrow. I'm exaggerating when I say ONLY the inner core moves, but it seems like the outer layer moves
less freely. It works better than the customary jumpy relationship between the windings and the nut, so I left it alone.
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I'm pretty sure "lemon oil" is another fiction, an unknown mix of whatever the manufacturer thought could be sold to the public as "naturally
nourishing the wood". You want the "tung oil" polymerizing oil mixture to penetrate so as to bond the film of polymerized oils + resins (that we are
about to form) to the wood. If this "lemon oil" you put on is miscible with your polymerizing oil blend, it will at least connect. If not, the film
will not bond to the fingerboard, it will "pool up". You will have to see once you obtain the "tung oil" polymerizing oil mixture. The "lemon oil" may
work as a base for this "tung oil", or it might need to be cleaned up and roughed lightly with solvents and sandpaper. I rather think I would clean
the hell out of it ANYWAY, enough that you can hopefully see the first layer of your polymerizing oil mix "wick up" into the wood. I would not want
any chance of the film separating from the base, that's what happened to that soft varnish that was there in the first place!
======================
I think the need to use quotation marks around names of products like "tung oil" reflects a bit of tragic and widespread deception in the marketplace.
I just heard that on guitars when they say "select spruce soundboard" they mean that it's made of many "selected" pieces of spruce, not a "selected"
primo variety of spruce. Not that composite materials necessarily make for bad instruments, but it's irritating and suggests a deeper lie, like when
C.F Martin conceals the "wood flotsam something with photo of wood grain bonded on" that they use on some of their guitar sides/backs under an
acronym.
Ironically, when such materials/issues appear on ouds, we will have a hard time deciding how to view it. There is no question that Chinese violins,
guitars, etc, are bringing very good quality at very low prices to the millions. I have several Chinese instruments that I purchased and upgraded to
excellent quality at unthinkably low cost. Will we rejoice at the widespread adoption of the oud, its eventual manufacturing in the Far East, or
should we curse the customary BS of the marketplace?
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diane
Oud Addict
Posts: 41
Registered: 3-22-2010
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PS My above was simply a vegan comment, not attempting to be a reference to the care of ouds. I am in no place to know :-)
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Yes, I have guessed that you are lucky with your egyptian (or maybe it is more then luck. Bought it in Egypt?)
You might be right about "lemon oil", but I really don't think Jameel sells rubbish. It say it is a cleaner and conditionar 
Still hoping to find my Poly. tung oil... but anyway, I am glad I took away the shellac.
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I love that word "conditioner". It's really total BS, isn't it? Is it that your oud needs groovy waves in it like a woman's hair? It's bad enough that
they sell us a dab of oil and emulsifiers and dilute them in surfactants to reduce the dryness that we just worked hard to achieve in the hair, and
imply that the hair is nourished etc. Now they extend the concept to your furniture and such!!!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Sorry this conversation between Luttgutt and me has leaked over from the topic of coating fretless fingerbaords to reduce string "gouging". Apologies.
Not sure if I should delete it or what .
I have a pretty good background in Chemistry, but the more I dug into the topic of varnishes the more BS I found until I reached the point of
desperation, as every definition I though real turned out not to be. For instance, I though the polymerizing oils were very distinct from varnishes.
But in fact varnish is a generic term that encompasses stuff that uses polymerizing oils as a main ingredient. So there are different types of
"varnish" mixtures, but they will never tell you what exactly is in them, so you could have two mixtures, one called a "tung oil" and the other a
"marine varnish" and in fact they might have very similar composition. Or you might have two mixtures both called "varnish" and one be largely
polyurethane in paint thinner and the other largely shellac (made from insect droppins) in alcohol! In other words these two "varnishes" are
completely different from each other. One would have to spend a lot of time in the field to reach a sufficient proficiency and knowledge to be able to
meaningfully navigate these available finishes.
All WE care about in fingerboard coating is that it make a hard coating that is not at all soluble in water or alcohol and with very low solubility in
organic solvents, i.e. that solidifies primarily by polymerization of the oil ingredient and not by evaporation of the solvents. And we want that
ability to add a little more easily as touch-up.
But even the word "solidifies" is open to many interpretations. Did you know that glass is a liquid? So how do we even TALK about such things when all
the terms are complex and IN ADDITION are being changed on us in the interest of spreading confusion in order to sell more stuff?
The lemon oil stuff I have seen is mostly scented mineral oil that doesn't set at all, it makes the wood slick, ironically much like a hair
conditioner. It's useful on hardwood fingerboards? keeps it from drying out and cracking, maybe, though it's not a coating.
I have this stuff called "fast-fret" that's recommended for guitar necks as it speeds up playing ?! Guess what's in it -- lightly scented mineral oil.
It's nice on a rosewood or ebony fretboard, cleans and "conditions" ;-)
I would imagine that Norway has a lot of wood to finish, and would have some knowledgeable people in this area, no?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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That's why many players of classical strings like violin or double bass recommend lemon oil for ebony fingerboard care. Even guitarists use it for
rosewood fingerboards too.
But they also warn, that most oils are fake (mineral oil) and that you should buy the real lemon oil in a drugstore, which is expensive.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I'm not even sure ANY lemon oil is lemon oil. We are back to the problem of false labeling. Wikipedia says:
Wood treatment - the traditional lemon oil used on the unsealed rosewood fingerboards of guitars and other stringed instruments is not made from
lemons. It's a different product altogether, made from mineral oil and a solvent, usually naphtha, and got its name from its color and tart smell, and
should not be confused with the corrosive oil of lemons.
Amazing ... I wouldn't put that stuff on wood to be coated with a polymerizing oil mix. But I think it comes off pretty easily. Woodwind players are
graced with Almond Oil. And children with Cod Liver Oil (foooey!), though not like they were mid 20th century. And let us not forget Crude Oil, Black
Gold, or everybody's headache.
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