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Andy
Oud Junkie
Posts: 314
Registered: 10-5-2004
Location: MA
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Mood: excellent
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Since I see that this thread opened again I will add my 2 cents I have a Barcus Berry on one of my ouds and have used the K&K twin spot, hot shot
and big shot, happy with all. I saw a newer product on ebay, a year or two ago called Recital Pickup made in Germany. Because of poor communication it
took awhile for me to install the pickup. The pick up has 2 prongs which is installed through the string holes in the bridge, the higher pitched
strings. It stays put with tension. The Recital comes with a sound control and a suction cup that attaches to the butt end od the oud so the cord will
not be in the way.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Recitalbox-reverb-device-for-Oud-Classic-guitar...
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Hi Andy,
first, thanks for the tip!
Don't misunderstand, what I have to say now, I don't want to offend you!
I visited their website and I have to say, from what I saw there, I would stay away from this product at first sight. What kind of fairy tales are
they trying to tell us HERE? Then when I check the video section, I find an MP3 for the oud in 128KBit ... oh man ... every instrument sounds horrible in such a low
bitrate. When I watch the video, I see that device attached to the oud and that's it, no further info, no before or after comparisons and no
explanations.
And when I read the description, I see that it seems to be easy to install it, but I learned nothing about this device, I don't know what it really
does and how it works.
These people seem to know nothing about marketing, after searching through the whole website, I ask myself, what kind of device this thing is, really
a pickup?
So it would be interesting to learn more from you, a customer of this product, who can report about his experiences. I bet you have more information
for us and maybe a useful sound sample too?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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oudtab
Oud Maniac
Posts: 85
Registered: 3-17-2009
Location: France
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Mood: No Mood
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Bonjour,
An interesting and smart microphone for acoustic string instruments (DPA 4099 - http://www.audio2.fr) :
http://www.laguitare.com/guitare-materiel-banc_d_essai-dpa-4099_gui...
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Andy
Oud Junkie
Posts: 314
Registered: 10-5-2004
Location: MA
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Mood: excellent
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Aymara, No problem, I am not offended. All of us has his or her own point of view. I was refering to the Recital Pickup. If you go the their site, go
to products, and then scroll down to #7 this is the product I am refering to. I have no idea how their Recitalbox performs or any claims they make on
the product.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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..., but for a price of 460 Euro I would expect a better frequency range than 80-15.000 Hz. For that money I myself would prefer a normal sized
Beyerdynamic microphone.
Don't you think so?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Andy
Oud Junkie
Posts: 314
Registered: 10-5-2004
Location: MA
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Mood: excellent
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That is up to you. I like it because, for me, it combines what I want, a pickup that I feel produces a good sound with a volume control. I am only
providing this group with another alternative to other pickups. To add, I have used another very popular pickup which I was not very happy with. You
may not like it but another will.
The one drawback, for some players the bulk of the pickup may get in the way of playing.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Shure ... I was mainly shocked by the price.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Hi again!
Quote: Originally posted by Andy  | | If you go the their site, go to products, and then scroll down to #7 this is the product I am refering to. |
BTW ... I forgot to ask ... do you maybe have a soundsample taken with this pickup?
How would you rate it compared to your K&K "Twin"?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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freya
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-8-2004
Location: Asheville NC
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Mood: Happy in the mountains of WNC
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Large collection of pickup reference recordings
Yes, these are all acoustic guitars but it has one of the widest comparison sets I've seen anywhere:
http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/
For the money, the B-Band AST seems like a very good solution for the oud - no piezo "quack" and simple interior adhesive mount under the bridge.
Yeah, the rosette has to come off for installation and you'll need to drill a hole for the endpin in the tail block. I'm going to pick one up for one
of my acoustics and if I like it may put one on one of my ouds.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I think though guitars instead of ouds were used for the test, this is very helpful to get an impression how good the pickups are.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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mjamed
Oud Junkie
Posts: 131
Registered: 2-3-2006
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Hello All
I just got my new oud which has K&K Twin Spot Internal.
They sound amazing : very clear and well balanced.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Hi mjamed, just wondering if your oud has soundholes, I mean can you see inside with a mirror and see where the transducers are placed?
thanks, S
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norumba
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-15-2003
Location: Taos
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for those who have experimented with the K&K products, where's your favorite placement for the transducer elements -- especially for those
who've used the four head version?
i'm thinking of getting a setup for my 7 course Iraqi Bashir oud; was also considering how well their floating bridge pickup might work http://www.kksound.com/floatingbridge.html ....
any one else mic'ing up Bashir ouds?
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Hi Stefan, I haven't used the four head version but with the twin spot I found that what worked on one oud wasn't necessarily what worked on another,
in fact I had one oud, with a great acoustic sound, that did not sound good no matter where I put the transducers, back to mic's for that one.
You know you can put the twinspot transducers under the bridge too, but with that and with the floating bridge pick-up you have to cut 1.3mm from the
height of your bridge, (or cut the string grooves 1.3mm deeper) to compensate for the added height of the trancducers.
Transducers, when all is said and done, are still transducers, only amplifying the wood, not the air, and I'm thinking for myself that a contact mic,
such as the AKG 411mk3L may be better tonally, and if you have the B29L 2 channel preamp to go with it you can mix in a mini omni condenser mic
mounted inside the oud, I've heard this, and personally I think it's great. Easy on open soundhole ouds.
Good luck with it, S
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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I've updated the original post with a few more models of pickup and preamp. There are some exciting new products on the market - the Radial tonebone
PZ-pre preamp is designed to get the most out of piezo pickups (both the button-style transducers such as the K&K, and the piezo film like the
Shadow and Pick Up the World). I'm in the midst of experimenting with pickups and preamps again as I have a couple shows coming up where I will be
playing in a large mixed ensemble and will not be able to "compete" if using a microphone (no gain before feedback).
I don't know if it was available before, but I just learned recently about the Pick Up the World oud pickups, and just got one to try out on my ouds
(I have some large shows coming up where I will need to be quite heavily amplified, so a mic will not do in those situations). I only had about a half
hour to test this out with my Ramazan oud, but through initial testing, I think that this may be the best pickup system for the oud on the market. It
doesn't sound the same as a mic, but with EQ, is certainly pleasant and entirely non-abrasive sounding, and most importantly does sound timbrally like
an oud. I don't feel this to be the case with most traditional piezoelectric elements, which are basically 60 cent sensors with a very limited dynamic
range and uneven frequency response. The piezoelectric film picks up the 60hz-6000hz range quite nicely, but (and perhaps this has to do with
placement - I'm not sure) is muted in the higher frequencies. I'm sure that, if one worked out the phase issues, this piezo film blended with a DPA
4061 or 4099 microphone would be THE killer live oud setup.
I hope to post sound samples soon of the PITW oud model through their preamp (in comparison to miking the instrument with dynamic and small diaphragm
condenser microphones).
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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If we want to get ANY info that we can extrapolate to our own situation, it's very important that any sound file or report be accompanied by w precise
description of placement and intermediate electronics.
Piezos are very high impedance devices. This means they are weak generators of voltage. Anything, even cables, that is wired in with piezos makes a
complex circuit with them, so that hi-lo-pass filters are created. The frequency response of piezos cannot even be measured, the measuring circuit
completely changes the results. You can unpredictably get excellent sound out of simple piezos if you experiment. If you add a buffer circuit, which
can be a single transistor or a complex preamp with controls, you can strengthen the signal so it becomes less influenced by what you plug it into.
People who claim THEIR piezos have special frequency response are generally selling you a whole expensive assembly. It's not the piezos. The point is
that pickups can generally only be characterized in connection with what you feed them into, and where you place the sensors on what type of
instrument. So please provide detailed and complete information. Sazi, I don't understand the "under bridge piezos" that raise a fixed bridge???? On
an oud??
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Er... neither do I!!
If you read the post above mine, which was the post I was responding to, you'll see it was referring to an Iraqi Floating bridge oud, hence my mention
of the floating bridge transducers.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | If we want to get ANY info that we can extrapolate to our own situation, it's very important that any sound file or report be accompanied by w precise
description of placement and intermediate electronics.
Piezos are very high impedance devices. This means they are weak generators of voltage. Anything, even cables, that is wired in with piezos makes a
complex circuit with them, so that hi-lo-pass filters are created. The frequency response of piezos cannot even be measured, the measuring circuit
completely changes the results. You can unpredictably get excellent sound out of simple piezos if you experiment. If you add a buffer circuit, which
can be a single transistor or a complex preamp with controls, you can strengthen the signal so it becomes less influenced by what you plug it into.
People who claim THEIR piezos have special frequency response are generally selling you a whole expensive assembly. It's not the piezos. The point is
that pickups can generally only be characterized in connection with what you feed them into, and where you place the sensors on what type of
instrument. So please provide detailed and complete information.
|
For starters, piezoelectric film and piezoelectric transducers are different sensor types and have different impedances. Piezoelectric film produces
about 10 times the output of ceramic elements. It is inaccurate that the frequency response of piezos can not be measured - any sensor's frequency
response can be measured, and any sensor will have an optimum operating range. But yes, everything following the sensor can have somewhere between a
small and a huge impact on the resulting sound.
I've experimented with ceramic piezo elements for years, including encasing them in different materials, different fastening materials, different
preamplification systems (including studio preamps with an input impedance of greater than 10 megaohms), using 2 on different parts of the face, and
have never gotten a sound that was oud-like or acceptable by itself. Piezoelectric film, at least, seems to be immediately a better starting point,
and I hope through more placement and preamp experimentation to figure out a placement that requires a minimum of signal processing.
I'll have files later, perhaps this weekend, with pictures of placement and a full detailing of the technologies involved. I'm also experimenting with
2 different ouds with quite different sounds - it could be that the Şehit oud I have amplifies better than the Ramazan oud.
This is a work in progress...
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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| Quote: Originally posted by eliot |
I'll have files later, perhaps this weekend, with pictures of placement and a full detailing of the technologies involved. |
That would be great.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Done!
Posted here...
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Thank you very much ... very interesting and detailed, but too bad you used only 96 KBit MP3s ... that's not enough for sound quality comparisons. If
you do a frequency spectrum analysis in Audacity, you'll notice, that the trebbles are extremly thinned out and frequencies above 16 KHz are cut off.
Shorter recordings at 224 KBit or even more would have been much more useful.
But nevertheless one can hear a sound difference and I'm coming to the conclusion, that for studio recordings the combination of pre-amped pickup
(because of the bass response) and microphone would be ideal. What do you think?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Thank you very much ... very interesting and detailed, but too bad you used only 96 KBit MP3s ... that's not enough for sound quality comparisons. If
you do a frequency spectrum analysis in Audacity, you'll notice, that the trebbles are extremly thinned out and frequencies above 16 KHz are cut off.
Shorter recordings at 224 KBit or even more would have been much more useful.
But nevertheless one can hear a sound difference and I'm coming to the conclusion, that for studio recordings the combination of pre-amped pickup
(because of the bass response) and microphone would be ideal. What do you think? |
Thanks for your comments - I'd post larger if there wasn't the 1mb per file limit (I still have the 16 bit wavs if someone wants to post them - Greg?
Mike?). To clarify, it's 96kbps mono (equivalent to 192kbps stereo), which should be relatively untainted up to about 16khz, and besides, the
pickup didn't capture any energy much above 10khz!
I'm not sure I'd personally use the pickup for studio recordings that are supposed to sound natural/acoustic in the end. The noise floor is one
problem, particularly in the high frequencies. There are other ways of capturing the bass response - many large diaphragm condenser mics (Neumann U-47
type) capture that energy quite well. I chose a small diaphragm mic since that's commonly used for stringed instrument recording and live sound work,
thinking it would be a bit more "familiar" for comparison.
But for live - at the moment, I have no hesitations to use this pickup without a mic for blending. And for recording where the oud sound will go
through effects such as distortion, phasing, autowah - the pickup is clearly superior to any mic, as it has more "punch" in the note attacks.
I'm not totally sure on the PUTW preamp, thinking of experimenting with the Baggs Para Driver and Radial preamps if I can find a retailer with a
decent enough return policy.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I read good things about the Rode M3 as a cheaper alternative ... I'm a bit low on budget and it's frequency range seems to be great ... maybe I'll
give that a try once my audio interface is set up ... got it yesterday.
| Quote: Originally posted by eliot | | And for recording where the oud sound will go through effects such as distortion, phasing, autowah - the pickup is clearly superior to any mic ...
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... as on guitars too 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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I can second that, I use one for live work, yes, nice smooth & warm sound, a great mic especially considering the price!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Thanks for the hint ... good to know that you're satisfied. From what I read, it's a good allrounder for nearly all acoustic instruments and even
vocals.
In reviews I often read, that better mics usualy cost more than double this price.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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